Mass Transit in Wichita
Wichita
Submitted by lindainks55
Would an improved mass transportation system help Wichita and its citizens? Is our current bus system so poor that it takes up to two or even three times longer than taking a private car? Where do we find out where the bus stops and when and are there transfers involved? Could we decide tomorrow morning to take a bus, find out how and actually get where we need to go? If we had never ridden the bus in this city and had to start from scratch on all the information needed to accomplish our transportation needs?
We’ve all visited cities where mass transportation is RIGHT THERE, gets you from point A to point B and back, easily and inexpensively. You find the nearest bus or train or subway station and read the signs, buy your token/ticket and off you go. Not only do you, the visitor, have this available but that city’s citizens are riding the bus or train or subway to and from their jobs and shopping. Those cities allow you to travel all day and into the evening to dinner and entertainment and still assure you a reliable way to get back to your hotel or home.
Reasons cities spend money for mass transportation include reducing traffic congestion, parking and air pollution, to promote tourism, to regenerate deprived areas of the city, provide mobility to those who cannot afford or are physically incapable of using an automobile.
Advocates argue that public funding of transit systems increase real estate values and have substantial economic benefits. Others argue public funding of transit systems is overly expensive and ineffective because they don’t divert a significant number of automobiles. Critics also claim public transportation systems attract undesirable elements – homeless people, criminals…
Do you think an improved mass transit system in Wichita would have a major positive impact? Is it needed? Would it be used by many social classes? Is it a wise way to spend public funds? Would you ride a bus if it offered adequate hours of operation, was more convenient and easier to get from here to there than the current system offers?
Predestined said:
Excellent, Linda!
Let me thunk on all the questions you've raised and get back after the caffeine has kicked in.
Let me thunk on all the questions you've raised and get back after the caffeine has kicked in.
Gster said:
I don't know much about public transit, but I think one of Wichita's problems is its area. This town is spread out over a large geographical area. I recall something from years ago that said WIchita was one of the largest cities in the country given its poulation. This would make the costs increase.
lindainks55 said:
Gster, I don't know anything but I'm hoping we'll both learn and know more.
San Diego is pretty spread out but their MTS system which includes trolleys and buses gets people from the outlying towns (El Cajon for example which is pretty far out) around to anywhere and everywhere.
I just don't know ANYTHING about the ins and outs so am asking for info from those who do.
San Diego is pretty spread out but their MTS system which includes trolleys and buses gets people from the outlying towns (El Cajon for example which is pretty far out) around to anywhere and everywhere.
I just don't know ANYTHING about the ins and outs so am asking for info from those who do.
Gster said:
Linda- I've been to SD and it is spread out. It's population , 1.2 million per Google, dwarfs ours and our smaller tax base would have a hard time finacing a transit system, I would imagine.
I'm not anti, just talking out loud about how little I really know about this idea.
Would the " Wild West" mentality have a bearing on this?
I'm not anti, just talking out loud about how little I really know about this idea.
Would the " Wild West" mentality have a bearing on this?
Vaughn Tolle said:
I am one who, from time to time, uses the existing Wichita Transit Authority bus system. I'm relatively ignorant of how other cities do things, so my comments will be limited to what I have observed/learned about the Wichita system.
First, using the bus is an easy thing for me. I can catch it relatively close to my front door, ride downtown to the Transit Center without transfer, and walk about two blocks to my office. Very convenient. Only, it doesn't serve me all that well. The major problem is the hours of operation; my profession doesn't lend itself well to regular hours; so, in order to make the bus home, I must be out of the office no later than 6 (or a bit after) so as to catch the 6:20 pm bus (the last one leaving).
Second: due to the sprawl, there are times I need to be able to go various places to meet with clients, attend real estate closings, etc. The bus either doesn't run close to where I need to go, or the "one bus an hour" schedule of the particular route requires me to leave the office earlier and return later than if I was in a car.
Third: it often is difficult to determine whether a particular route is one to which I can transfer, if needed, to make it to my destination. The drivers are, in my experience, very helpful for the most part in answering my questions; but, they're not always right. Nothing like being on the wrong bus, or the right bus at the wrong time, and being unable to transfer to the route needed.
Fourth: there is a definite "social" thing about riding the bus. Many of the good people on the bus are, shall we say, "undesirables" in the eyes of many.
I'm not hopeful of any measurable success in improving the situation. There seems to be a feeling that everyone should have a car, and that's how this city is set up. Wichitans enjoy the freedom of movement permitted by driving their POV. Even if there was an infusion of resources, with buses running every 15 minutes on popular routes, more routes added, extended hours, etc., I do not see much, if any, increased ridership.
The above is rambling, and surely doesn't truly respond to Linda's queries. I can do better, I think, if there are specific questions about Wichita's system directed to me.
I do ride the bus, as stated above; I would ride it more, if the hours were extended, and there were more routes. Gas prices, etc., will have an effect on my willingness to put up with the current inconveniences; but, it is unlikely that many others who DON'T need to ride the bus will do so absent radical changes in both the system and factors relating to the cost of operation of their POVs.
First, using the bus is an easy thing for me. I can catch it relatively close to my front door, ride downtown to the Transit Center without transfer, and walk about two blocks to my office. Very convenient. Only, it doesn't serve me all that well. The major problem is the hours of operation; my profession doesn't lend itself well to regular hours; so, in order to make the bus home, I must be out of the office no later than 6 (or a bit after) so as to catch the 6:20 pm bus (the last one leaving).
Second: due to the sprawl, there are times I need to be able to go various places to meet with clients, attend real estate closings, etc. The bus either doesn't run close to where I need to go, or the "one bus an hour" schedule of the particular route requires me to leave the office earlier and return later than if I was in a car.
Third: it often is difficult to determine whether a particular route is one to which I can transfer, if needed, to make it to my destination. The drivers are, in my experience, very helpful for the most part in answering my questions; but, they're not always right. Nothing like being on the wrong bus, or the right bus at the wrong time, and being unable to transfer to the route needed.
Fourth: there is a definite "social" thing about riding the bus. Many of the good people on the bus are, shall we say, "undesirables" in the eyes of many.
I'm not hopeful of any measurable success in improving the situation. There seems to be a feeling that everyone should have a car, and that's how this city is set up. Wichitans enjoy the freedom of movement permitted by driving their POV. Even if there was an infusion of resources, with buses running every 15 minutes on popular routes, more routes added, extended hours, etc., I do not see much, if any, increased ridership.
The above is rambling, and surely doesn't truly respond to Linda's queries. I can do better, I think, if there are specific questions about Wichita's system directed to me.
I do ride the bus, as stated above; I would ride it more, if the hours were extended, and there were more routes. Gas prices, etc., will have an effect on my willingness to put up with the current inconveniences; but, it is unlikely that many others who DON'T need to ride the bus will do so absent radical changes in both the system and factors relating to the cost of operation of their POVs.
lindainks55 said:
You're right about the difference in population being a big factor I'm sure. I'm thinking out loud too because I really know nothing about when is the risk worthwhile, how did today's successful mass transit systems begin, why, what point determines a need...? I'm so ill informed I can't even pose what questions need to answered.
A friend used to sell real estate and one day took a European woman on a tour of Wichita. The woman's "kid" now lived here and she was considering moving also. After a short time the woman asked my friend, "Why do you leave so much space between the houses?" The only answer my friend could come up with is, "I suppose because we can."
Here in the vast middle we can build roads wider and wider, slap down parking lots, do everything necessary to make sure each individual can drive their own vehicle. We're not hemmed in by an ocean, no historical bldgs. that can't be torn down. So most of us don't need to think about those who can't afford their own car, visitors to our fair city are probably visiting relatives who have their own car or its a business trip and again someone has a car or one can be rented. WHY else would you plan to come to Wichita over another place? And, it's a good thing because if you did plan to come here to see the "sights," you would need access to a car. Even if you stay downtown and walk to the museums along the river, how do you get to the zoo or the dog track, or town west and/or east? What if you take the bus there and need to return in the evening after the buses quit running? Can you take the bus there?
So is this a good place to repeat the chicken joke? Is lack of transportation slowing down other progress or simply not needed? Which needs to come first?
A friend used to sell real estate and one day took a European woman on a tour of Wichita. The woman's "kid" now lived here and she was considering moving also. After a short time the woman asked my friend, "Why do you leave so much space between the houses?" The only answer my friend could come up with is, "I suppose because we can."
Here in the vast middle we can build roads wider and wider, slap down parking lots, do everything necessary to make sure each individual can drive their own vehicle. We're not hemmed in by an ocean, no historical bldgs. that can't be torn down. So most of us don't need to think about those who can't afford their own car, visitors to our fair city are probably visiting relatives who have their own car or its a business trip and again someone has a car or one can be rented. WHY else would you plan to come to Wichita over another place? And, it's a good thing because if you did plan to come here to see the "sights," you would need access to a car. Even if you stay downtown and walk to the museums along the river, how do you get to the zoo or the dog track, or town west and/or east? What if you take the bus there and need to return in the evening after the buses quit running? Can you take the bus there?
So is this a good place to repeat the chicken joke? Is lack of transportation slowing down other progress or simply not needed? Which needs to come first?
longhorn said:
One of the things that caused Austin untold headaches when the boom hit was that their infrastructure in general was not suited to serve the growth in population. And really, that is the bottom line in economic development. We want JOBS because we want PEOPLE. We want PLANTS because we want tax base.
So... the question really is how badly does Wichita and the surrounding area really want to grow? How BIG ing terms of population, does it want to grow?
The need to answer and then plan and implement a plan to deal with increased population. Lack of infrastructure planning can be fatal. Austin is almost unlivable right now due to traffic and air quality problems.
Oh, it is still consistantly ranked as one of the best places to live, but the traffic and "ozone" days are just killer, and the last time I lived there, we had water shortages. Not because there was a shortage of water, but because the treatment and distribution infrastructure just couldnt support the new meters being added at an ever more rapid rate, not to mention distance.
And I bring up distance for a reason. People these day want their McMansions, their acreage, their suburban "neighborhoods". So they build, ever farther out, to get those things at what they think is an affordable price, the subprime lending market not withstanding. And did I mention smaller and whiter suburban schools as a population draw?
A great book on the subject is called "Edge Cities" but I cant think of the name of the author anymore. It also ties in with Linda's desire to learn about economic development in small cities.
I did a rant on that the other day, but really, the only "small towns" that are going to prosper in ks in the future are the ones located near an "economic engine" like Wichita. So... y'all need to be prepared for growth, if you want it, in those edge towns (hehehe hardly cities).
Housing, schools, parks and other quality of life amenities are needed, but the real killer will be traffic and air quality. If these edge towns are growing because they are bedroom communities for commuters going INTO Wichita, they damn well better solve the problem of effective and air friendly transportation. Otherwise?
They too will face ozone days, emission controls, and the edge towns will not grow as fast as they could. Or should, given the population growth in Wichita proper.
Edge cities need the big "economic engine" cities, and everyone knows that, since they are drawing their population based on "jobs". (and yes there is an answer to that too, but later) However, the engine cities need the edge cities too, and they generally refuse to recognize it. Witness Park City and Wichita.
Yikes, as usual, I could go on and on. I'll try to write more, if anyone is interested. Another great book on the subject is one I always tout called "The Rise of the Creative Class" by Richard Florida.
So... the question really is how badly does Wichita and the surrounding area really want to grow? How BIG ing terms of population, does it want to grow?
The need to answer and then plan and implement a plan to deal with increased population. Lack of infrastructure planning can be fatal. Austin is almost unlivable right now due to traffic and air quality problems.
Oh, it is still consistantly ranked as one of the best places to live, but the traffic and "ozone" days are just killer, and the last time I lived there, we had water shortages. Not because there was a shortage of water, but because the treatment and distribution infrastructure just couldnt support the new meters being added at an ever more rapid rate, not to mention distance.
And I bring up distance for a reason. People these day want their McMansions, their acreage, their suburban "neighborhoods". So they build, ever farther out, to get those things at what they think is an affordable price, the subprime lending market not withstanding. And did I mention smaller and whiter suburban schools as a population draw?
A great book on the subject is called "Edge Cities" but I cant think of the name of the author anymore. It also ties in with Linda's desire to learn about economic development in small cities.
I did a rant on that the other day, but really, the only "small towns" that are going to prosper in ks in the future are the ones located near an "economic engine" like Wichita. So... y'all need to be prepared for growth, if you want it, in those edge towns (hehehe hardly cities).
Housing, schools, parks and other quality of life amenities are needed, but the real killer will be traffic and air quality. If these edge towns are growing because they are bedroom communities for commuters going INTO Wichita, they damn well better solve the problem of effective and air friendly transportation. Otherwise?
They too will face ozone days, emission controls, and the edge towns will not grow as fast as they could. Or should, given the population growth in Wichita proper.
Edge cities need the big "economic engine" cities, and everyone knows that, since they are drawing their population based on "jobs". (and yes there is an answer to that too, but later) However, the engine cities need the edge cities too, and they generally refuse to recognize it. Witness Park City and Wichita.
Yikes, as usual, I could go on and on. I'll try to write more, if anyone is interested. Another great book on the subject is one I always tout called "The Rise of the Creative Class" by Richard Florida.
Predestined said:
http://www.wichitagov.org/CityOffices/Transit/BusR...
That's the map of the bus routes.
I checked to see how I could get to my bank on the west side from my home in the southeast. 3 different routes/buses to get there and the same to get back.
All it takes, I'm sure, is to do it once. After that it would be easy.
That's the map of the bus routes.
I checked to see how I could get to my bank on the west side from my home in the southeast. 3 different routes/buses to get there and the same to get back.
All it takes, I'm sure, is to do it once. After that it would be easy.
Predestined said:
LH, having come from one of the edge towns, I can tell you that many of them are growing. There's a big divide among those who welcome that and those who don't.
I have to laugh at the McMansion comment. It's all too true. I can take you 20 miles away from Wichita and show you exactly that. And it keeps growing. I can't see any of those people using the bus system in Wichita. Ever. But why would they need to? They have more than enough cars to travel into the city to anywhere they want to go and back again.
I have a feeling we'll have to accept the status quo.
I have to laugh at the McMansion comment. It's all too true. I can take you 20 miles away from Wichita and show you exactly that. And it keeps growing. I can't see any of those people using the bus system in Wichita. Ever. But why would they need to? They have more than enough cars to travel into the city to anywhere they want to go and back again.
I have a feeling we'll have to accept the status quo.
longhorn said:
The resistance to mass transit is also due partly to what Vaughn said and Gster pointed out. We like to ride our own horses here, we dont like the stagecoach!
Flexibility, comfort, speed in traveling a direct route, and the "class" thing Vaughn spoke of. My experience has been that the most successful mass transit systems in term of riders are light rail. Metro D.C. San Franciso, the PATH in NY, all are good examples. Buses are perceived as dirty, slow, and filled with undesirables. They stink, they spew emissions into the air, and they run on fossil fuels. Ethanol or biodiesel cause their own harmful effects on the environment.
Light rail is obviously more expensive, and you have the problem of "fixed routes" where bus routes are more easily changed. But, if you want ANY hope of increased ridership, the advantages of light rail will draw riders easier and better than buses. It can TRUELY be sold as an asset to the environment, where buses, even if they cut down on single rider cars, will always have emissions problems. Light rail may run on electricity, produced with fossil fuels of course, but they are not as hard on the air quality.
If the Wichita Metro Area grows as fast as they seem to want, one of the keys will be planning for transportation needs in the future. Perhaps high occupancy vehicle lanes, coupled with direct light rail lines from edge city hubs, coupled with small vans that leave the hubs more frequently, and even a decent taxi cab system will all help the pill of mass transit go down more easily.
Because I dont care how great the logistical planning, how shiny the cars, how speedy the bus or train, if you dont have RIDERS, it wont work. The need to plan so far in the future and implement at a slower pace is a hard sell to the voting public. They really dont like to think or pay taxes that far ahead. :)
Flexibility, comfort, speed in traveling a direct route, and the "class" thing Vaughn spoke of. My experience has been that the most successful mass transit systems in term of riders are light rail. Metro D.C. San Franciso, the PATH in NY, all are good examples. Buses are perceived as dirty, slow, and filled with undesirables. They stink, they spew emissions into the air, and they run on fossil fuels. Ethanol or biodiesel cause their own harmful effects on the environment.
Light rail is obviously more expensive, and you have the problem of "fixed routes" where bus routes are more easily changed. But, if you want ANY hope of increased ridership, the advantages of light rail will draw riders easier and better than buses. It can TRUELY be sold as an asset to the environment, where buses, even if they cut down on single rider cars, will always have emissions problems. Light rail may run on electricity, produced with fossil fuels of course, but they are not as hard on the air quality.
If the Wichita Metro Area grows as fast as they seem to want, one of the keys will be planning for transportation needs in the future. Perhaps high occupancy vehicle lanes, coupled with direct light rail lines from edge city hubs, coupled with small vans that leave the hubs more frequently, and even a decent taxi cab system will all help the pill of mass transit go down more easily.
Because I dont care how great the logistical planning, how shiny the cars, how speedy the bus or train, if you dont have RIDERS, it wont work. The need to plan so far in the future and implement at a slower pace is a hard sell to the voting public. They really dont like to think or pay taxes that far ahead. :)
longhorn said:
All good points Pre. I dont think folks with money will ever see mass transit as an attractive choice. However, if fuel prices go up, if traffic and commuting times TRIPLE like they did in Austin, if the jobs continue to spread over a wide geographic area, the new suburbanites might see some benefit in using mass transit for commuting.
As Gster pointed out, we like our cars here, and we WONT give them up. One of the standard components of a McMansion is a THREE car garage, even if they only own two cars. The only question is how often we will use those ever more expensive cars, and how we will use them for leisure or work.
Are you all near the point where ozone days will be almost everyday, and hour commute is the norm, and fuel prices make single rider cars too expensive to drive? I dont think so.
So... that make now the PERFECT time to start planning for growth. Because if you dont plan for it, growth will kill you not sustain you.
Unless, as Pre points out, the edge cities dont really WANT the growth. But that is an entirely different "War and Peace" size post...
As Gster pointed out, we like our cars here, and we WONT give them up. One of the standard components of a McMansion is a THREE car garage, even if they only own two cars. The only question is how often we will use those ever more expensive cars, and how we will use them for leisure or work.
Are you all near the point where ozone days will be almost everyday, and hour commute is the norm, and fuel prices make single rider cars too expensive to drive? I dont think so.
So... that make now the PERFECT time to start planning for growth. Because if you dont plan for it, growth will kill you not sustain you.
Unless, as Pre points out, the edge cities dont really WANT the growth. But that is an entirely different "War and Peace" size post...
lindainks55 said:
I think you're right Pre. So at best we get to face Austin's problems (that's IF we see growth), at worst we remain as we've always been. And why do we need that arena?
Boston is one of my favorite cities to visit. The conversations you hear while on their wonderful transit system, or sitting at a table in a restaurant are so different and refreshing. First, it's a pretty liberal environment so ya gotta love their political views! I haven’t had nearly enough diversity in my life! I could listen forever to people with differences and just soak it up like a sponge. But in Boston you can take the red line to the green line to... and you can get anywhere quickly and inexpensively. People who own cars don't use them unless they're leaving town. Why would you drive to a restaurant and pay $20 or more to park instead of having a couple extra glasses of wine and an appetizer while at the restaurant!?
Yep, lh, I want to hear more!
Boston is one of my favorite cities to visit. The conversations you hear while on their wonderful transit system, or sitting at a table in a restaurant are so different and refreshing. First, it's a pretty liberal environment so ya gotta love their political views! I haven’t had nearly enough diversity in my life! I could listen forever to people with differences and just soak it up like a sponge. But in Boston you can take the red line to the green line to... and you can get anywhere quickly and inexpensively. People who own cars don't use them unless they're leaving town. Why would you drive to a restaurant and pay $20 or more to park instead of having a couple extra glasses of wine and an appetizer while at the restaurant!?
Yep, lh, I want to hear more!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Linda, staying within my limited knowledge; if one is downtown, and wishes to go to Towne East, one may do so on the bus; College Hill and East Harry routes. However, if there, and the time is after 6:10 pm or so, to get back downtown, one better be ready to walk, call a cab, or have alternative transportation arrangements (friend with car, e.g.).
An example of how the Kellogg project is causing difficulties for folks dependent on the bus; as you may be aware, there are several motels and the Marriott located along/just off Webb Road. The housekeeping staff of the same (primarily Latino and Asian) are often seen riding the bus from the Transit Center to their destination; the College Hill route which proceeds South on Webb between Douglas and Kellogg. Now, with the construction ongoing, the College Hill route has a detour which causes it to proceed South on Rock to Kellogg; to get out to the motels, etc., on Webb, the good folks need to take the East Harry route from Downtown, which at the moment proceeds (via a detour) North on Webb from Kellogg to Douglas. The staff thus needs to disembark the bus on the East side of Webb and cross the street (which is becoming more and more busy daily) to their employment. However, to be on time to work, due to the length of the East Harry route, the staff folks will need to take the East Harry bus leaving 30 minutes earlier than the College Hill bus they are accustomed to riding. This will require them to catch a 30 minute or an hour earlier bus (generally Riverside or North Waco) than they would have to get to the Transit Center for the transfer to East Harry.
Returning home will require them to be on the East side of Webb to make the inbound East Harry bus, which passes by this point somewhat earlier than the inbound College Hill did; I suspect what really happens is that they have to wait another half-hour for the next East Harry bus to come by.
The result of all this, from observation, is that the good folks "changing the sheets", etc. in these motels will spend another hour to hour and a half in transit to and from work than they would have otherwise. They likely already spent (before the Kellogg construction moved to the Rock Road Area) about an hour in transit, due to the need to transfer at the Transit Center. If, however, there was another major East-West route to which they could transfer without going downtown which would "meet up" with a route providing service to this Webb Road area, I suspect they could be back to an hour transit time; not a perfect thing, but a lot better than what they are faced with at the present.
An example of how the Kellogg project is causing difficulties for folks dependent on the bus; as you may be aware, there are several motels and the Marriott located along/just off Webb Road. The housekeeping staff of the same (primarily Latino and Asian) are often seen riding the bus from the Transit Center to their destination; the College Hill route which proceeds South on Webb between Douglas and Kellogg. Now, with the construction ongoing, the College Hill route has a detour which causes it to proceed South on Rock to Kellogg; to get out to the motels, etc., on Webb, the good folks need to take the East Harry route from Downtown, which at the moment proceeds (via a detour) North on Webb from Kellogg to Douglas. The staff thus needs to disembark the bus on the East side of Webb and cross the street (which is becoming more and more busy daily) to their employment. However, to be on time to work, due to the length of the East Harry route, the staff folks will need to take the East Harry bus leaving 30 minutes earlier than the College Hill bus they are accustomed to riding. This will require them to catch a 30 minute or an hour earlier bus (generally Riverside or North Waco) than they would have to get to the Transit Center for the transfer to East Harry.
Returning home will require them to be on the East side of Webb to make the inbound East Harry bus, which passes by this point somewhat earlier than the inbound College Hill did; I suspect what really happens is that they have to wait another half-hour for the next East Harry bus to come by.
The result of all this, from observation, is that the good folks "changing the sheets", etc. in these motels will spend another hour to hour and a half in transit to and from work than they would have otherwise. They likely already spent (before the Kellogg construction moved to the Rock Road Area) about an hour in transit, due to the need to transfer at the Transit Center. If, however, there was another major East-West route to which they could transfer without going downtown which would "meet up" with a route providing service to this Webb Road area, I suspect they could be back to an hour transit time; not a perfect thing, but a lot better than what they are faced with at the present.
longhorn said:
One more thing....
The growth and attendant problems of edge cities is a POWERFUL incentive to redevelop your downtown. A livable downtown, and a livable CORE city are the best ways to cut down on the problems of edge cities. And I know this will rankle some, but you need PRIVATE DEVELOPERS who work WITH city hall and the downtown and planning people, not AGAINST them.
Austin's downtown is now the hippest place to live and has some of the most high dollar lofts in the state. Hell, I even had city refugees looking for LOFTS out here!!!! No kidding. They were looking for a building with downtown retail space and loft space above for living. I didnt have any suitable buildings, and they had already looked in Ellis and Hays and Plainville and Russell. No suitable loft space.
Jesus wept. That is what happened in Austin too. The uber rich went looking in Elgin, Bastrop, etc., the edge cities there, because they could buy vacant car dealerships, schools, churches, etc. to do FUNKY McMansions with a twist.
Sorry to be veering off subject. If your downtown is an attractive place to live in terms not just of housing but restaurants, book stores, bars, music, theaters, etc., then that appeals to a certain housing market. Just having great housing and mass transit wont get people to live there. You have to have amenities within walking distance as well.
It is all complex and interwoven. That is why you need a UNIFYING vision for your REGION, not just a visoneer for the big dog. You need whole woven cloth to really get ahead of the curve, not a patchwork quilt, no matter how pretty the squares.
The growth and attendant problems of edge cities is a POWERFUL incentive to redevelop your downtown. A livable downtown, and a livable CORE city are the best ways to cut down on the problems of edge cities. And I know this will rankle some, but you need PRIVATE DEVELOPERS who work WITH city hall and the downtown and planning people, not AGAINST them.
Austin's downtown is now the hippest place to live and has some of the most high dollar lofts in the state. Hell, I even had city refugees looking for LOFTS out here!!!! No kidding. They were looking for a building with downtown retail space and loft space above for living. I didnt have any suitable buildings, and they had already looked in Ellis and Hays and Plainville and Russell. No suitable loft space.
Jesus wept. That is what happened in Austin too. The uber rich went looking in Elgin, Bastrop, etc., the edge cities there, because they could buy vacant car dealerships, schools, churches, etc. to do FUNKY McMansions with a twist.
Sorry to be veering off subject. If your downtown is an attractive place to live in terms not just of housing but restaurants, book stores, bars, music, theaters, etc., then that appeals to a certain housing market. Just having great housing and mass transit wont get people to live there. You have to have amenities within walking distance as well.
It is all complex and interwoven. That is why you need a UNIFYING vision for your REGION, not just a visoneer for the big dog. You need whole woven cloth to really get ahead of the curve, not a patchwork quilt, no matter how pretty the squares.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Exactly, lh; it's a REGIONAL thing, not just local. Planning is required; but as we are all aware, planning isn't exactly the long suit of many in this area.
The need for amenities seems to be understood by the "Minnesota Guys" (my current office landlord), and they are working towards providing some of this. While I'm not involved in the discussions in any way, my observation is that there's not a lot of understanding of this by many others.
The need for amenities seems to be understood by the "Minnesota Guys" (my current office landlord), and they are working towards providing some of this. While I'm not involved in the discussions in any way, my observation is that there's not a lot of understanding of this by many others.
longhorn said:
Pre and Linda, you make some great points. When I did hard time in Basking Ridge NJ (HI Aaron!) we ALWAYS took the train to the bus station or the subway stations and then fanned out from there. Hell, I drove my car ('cause I lived in the 'burbs) to New Bruswick and rode the train from there and eventually wound up either at the WTC for biz or the Christopher Steet sub station in the Village for entertainment :)
Linda is correct, that a lot of folks garage their cars and only use them for out of town trips or weekend jaunts. Part of that is due to the TRAFFIC in the city, and if you have ever driven in NYC, you know what I mean. Why fight the cabbies if you can take the PATH? And then try to PARK!!!!!
Pre also brings up a good point about the "servant class" workers. All those downtown amenities and lofts need service workers. They damn sure cant afford to LIVE downtown if it is gentrified, and they have no cars or parking to commute. So? Mass transit will help staff those buildings and services downtown and other places. That draws MORE people to live in the area, and the wheels of the economy go 'round and 'round :)
The aging of our population will also increase demand for mass transit. The older we get, the less we WANT to drive in heavy traffic, and our kids will be taking the keys someday anyway. :) That is one reason we need mass transit where we havent even thought of it.
In rural areas, so the old folks can commute to the cities. Now for THOSE transportation needs, you need buses. Light rail needs too much infrastructure money for the number of riders in rural areas, and the air quality is usually not a problem.
Linda is correct, that a lot of folks garage their cars and only use them for out of town trips or weekend jaunts. Part of that is due to the TRAFFIC in the city, and if you have ever driven in NYC, you know what I mean. Why fight the cabbies if you can take the PATH? And then try to PARK!!!!!
Pre also brings up a good point about the "servant class" workers. All those downtown amenities and lofts need service workers. They damn sure cant afford to LIVE downtown if it is gentrified, and they have no cars or parking to commute. So? Mass transit will help staff those buildings and services downtown and other places. That draws MORE people to live in the area, and the wheels of the economy go 'round and 'round :)
The aging of our population will also increase demand for mass transit. The older we get, the less we WANT to drive in heavy traffic, and our kids will be taking the keys someday anyway. :) That is one reason we need mass transit where we havent even thought of it.
In rural areas, so the old folks can commute to the cities. Now for THOSE transportation needs, you need buses. Light rail needs too much infrastructure money for the number of riders in rural areas, and the air quality is usually not a problem.
Vaughn Tolle said:
One "amenity" that seems to be not discussed by many, but seems obvious to me is a grocery store located within easy walking distance of the downtown residences. The convenience stores just aren't going to do it for folks who actually buy the lofts and live down here. Another, I suspect, would be a small pharmacy.
rm6046 said:
Linda: To answer all of your questions at the end of your well written query in a word: "NO".
longhorn said:
VT, I recently read that term the "Minnesota guys". I dont know anything about them or their previous projects, but effective downtown development is a skill unto itself. Mixing retail, service, residential, and some remaining mfging, is a delicate balance, and TIMING is everything. The development is designed to be sequential, but at a rapid enough pace that it SEEMS to be happening concurrently. Vedddy tricky. And lots of BIG money at high risk. That is where public entities come in. On one hand, they have the responsibility to see that construction meets the needed standards, permits are effective, etc. On the other hand, the city can apply for grants and low interest loans to lessen the risk of the private developers.
I dont know much about Wichtia, but it almost ALWAYS takes OUTSIDE developers to make the project work. And they damn sure better have some talented spokes people for marketing, media realtions, and government relations. They can be participant/observers much better than local developers, and they usually know how to make the optimal use of tax incentives and public/private financing.
That public/private financing should be structured to remove risk while ensuring prudent use of resources.
Have I bored y'all to death yet? heheheheheheheh
I dont know much about Wichtia, but it almost ALWAYS takes OUTSIDE developers to make the project work. And they damn sure better have some talented spokes people for marketing, media realtions, and government relations. They can be participant/observers much better than local developers, and they usually know how to make the optimal use of tax incentives and public/private financing.
That public/private financing should be structured to remove risk while ensuring prudent use of resources.
Have I bored y'all to death yet? heheheheheheheh
Vaughn Tolle said:
lh, the "Minnesota Guys" are from Minneapolis (surprise, huh?), very successful as I understand as a part of the downtown redevelopment up there. The one person with whom I have a conversational relationship is, to my mind, quite savvy and in our conversations, has identified many of the same issues as you point to in your 9:31 (really 10:31) post.
longhorn said:
VT, right you are about other amenities. Now in Austin, there are no downtown grocery stores or pharmacies anymore. Austin is very urban in it's geography, but very small town in its mentality. So.. they still go to Albertsons to get their groceries and Walgreen for their meds. I take that back. I think there is a Walgreens downtown Austin again.
Anyway, on the other extreme, most folks in NYC get their groceries almost everyday, one bag at a time, from urban vendors. Green grocers, fruit stands, meat markets, delis, etc. serve the needs. And there are always grocery deliveries for those who dont like to shop, carry bags to a fourth floor walk-up, and dont mind paying the delivery fee.
Some small food vendors and specialty stores make a downtown hum. Big box stores can make it downtown in places like NYC, but they usually need too much too expensive space to be viable in a down town real estate market. Small stores are better suited, and they usually appeal to the funky desires of downtown wellers.
As F. Scott said, the very rich, they are different from us :)
Anyway, on the other extreme, most folks in NYC get their groceries almost everyday, one bag at a time, from urban vendors. Green grocers, fruit stands, meat markets, delis, etc. serve the needs. And there are always grocery deliveries for those who dont like to shop, carry bags to a fourth floor walk-up, and dont mind paying the delivery fee.
Some small food vendors and specialty stores make a downtown hum. Big box stores can make it downtown in places like NYC, but they usually need too much too expensive space to be viable in a down town real estate market. Small stores are better suited, and they usually appeal to the funky desires of downtown wellers.
As F. Scott said, the very rich, they are different from us :)
longhorn said:
hee hee hee VT. Do you think they need a farmgrrl consultant? hehehehe. Seriously, it is a unique skill set to be the interface between rural and urban issues and developments. Many understand rural, and many understand urban, but cross discipline experience is in short supply.
Maybe they need a "green grocer" like me downtown? heheheheheheheheeheh!!!!!!
Maybe they need a "green grocer" like me downtown? heheheheheheheheeheh!!!!!!
Vaughn Tolle said:
lh (and others interested), since we're off topic a bit, here's a link to the Minnesota Guys' website concerning what they're doing in Wichita.
http://www.realdevelopmentcorp.com/main.html
http://www.realdevelopmentcorp.com/main.html
longhorn said:
IMHO, the biggest trick in Kansas for downtown mixed development is being able to NOT roll up the streets at 9pm. Downtown has to be a 24 hr a day deal, and you have to have the right people mix to make that happen. They cant be like me and go to bed at 9 everynight, and there has to be something for them to do, somewhere to go, something to buy, in order for the vampires to come out :)
...and that presents yet another kink for mass transit to serve the 24 hr per day nature of cities.
You have to make plans for the transition and build in some excess capacity, in both real estate and transportation, and KNOW that excess capacity will look like waste to the average joe taxpayer looking on. If you dont build in that initial, unused, excess capacity, you will quicly find yourself behind the growth curve and you will NEVER catch up!!!!
In Landmark Education, they talk a lot about how if you want something new to come into your life, you have to create a "space" for it so it can arrive. Most communities hate vacancy and are sensitive to criticism that they didnt plan well, were too optimistic, and dont know their ass from a hole in the ground.
You need strong community leaders, elected officials, and private partners to hang together between the time the excess capacity is created and when it is filled.
Just ask the arena folks.... I know they have other management problems, but just look. They are in the excess capacity and attendant rock throwing phase.
...and that presents yet another kink for mass transit to serve the 24 hr per day nature of cities.
You have to make plans for the transition and build in some excess capacity, in both real estate and transportation, and KNOW that excess capacity will look like waste to the average joe taxpayer looking on. If you dont build in that initial, unused, excess capacity, you will quicly find yourself behind the growth curve and you will NEVER catch up!!!!
In Landmark Education, they talk a lot about how if you want something new to come into your life, you have to create a "space" for it so it can arrive. Most communities hate vacancy and are sensitive to criticism that they didnt plan well, were too optimistic, and dont know their ass from a hole in the ground.
You need strong community leaders, elected officials, and private partners to hang together between the time the excess capacity is created and when it is filled.
Just ask the arena folks.... I know they have other management problems, but just look. They are in the excess capacity and attendant rock throwing phase.
longhorn said:
Yeah, OT, and I seem to be hogging the thread. Sorry, I didnt mean to do that or bore you, but as you can see, I've had 23 years to study this....
Vaughn Tolle said:
lh, you're not boring me! I just wish I'd had that fertile brain of your to "pick" back when I was in law school taking Zoning and Land Use Planning and the course in State and Local Law; my grades would surely have been higher. :-)
Predestined said:
Yes, VT, DELIs!
Linda, I haven't been to Boston since I was a kid, but from your description, I'd love to go back. Besides NYC, I've ridden the Metro in DC, which was a great experience, and the (very limited) DART in Dallas. I'm hoping to give the trolley a try in San Fransisco next year. :)
VT, my heart goes out to those motel workers you mentioned. The 30 minute drive I used to make from that edge town to my work was a royal pain. I can't imagine having to take the bus and making multiple changes the way they do, especially with the road construction adding to the hours.
My editor in NYC lives outside of Manhattan and rides the subway to and from the office each day. She mentioned once that she did own a car (she's in her 20's), but rarely drives it. It's parked, probably in or near her apartment building. One of these days I'll have to remember to ask her more about it. What is a bit mind-boggling is that her live-in boyfriend is from Kansas City, and they usually make a trip to visit his parents at least once a year. Yet this young woman has no clue what "living in the middle of nowhere" means.
I have to get some work done, so I'll catch you all later on a short break.
Linda, I haven't been to Boston since I was a kid, but from your description, I'd love to go back. Besides NYC, I've ridden the Metro in DC, which was a great experience, and the (very limited) DART in Dallas. I'm hoping to give the trolley a try in San Fransisco next year. :)
VT, my heart goes out to those motel workers you mentioned. The 30 minute drive I used to make from that edge town to my work was a royal pain. I can't imagine having to take the bus and making multiple changes the way they do, especially with the road construction adding to the hours.
My editor in NYC lives outside of Manhattan and rides the subway to and from the office each day. She mentioned once that she did own a car (she's in her 20's), but rarely drives it. It's parked, probably in or near her apartment building. One of these days I'll have to remember to ask her more about it. What is a bit mind-boggling is that her live-in boyfriend is from Kansas City, and they usually make a trip to visit his parents at least once a year. Yet this young woman has no clue what "living in the middle of nowhere" means.
I have to get some work done, so I'll catch you all later on a short break.
longhorn said:
hehehe VT. Dont bet on it. Back then I was busy pickling that fertile brain in the bars in Hays :) And hey, goddammit, didnt Tony Snow just recently say the preznit had a fertile brain? Is that some backhanded complement? heheheheh :)
I have a deep love for economic and community development, and I have been around long enough to see the biz come full circle.. a couple of times....
But I do see environmentally sustainable communities as the next wave of community development. I have to say, I was in a meeting with a fellow in Ellsworth named Jim Gray (sp?) he talked about that and how ks economy could be built on small, sustainable organic farms, animal ops, etc. At the time, I thought he was crazy, and of course, I told him so too. But I need to tell him now, a year later, that he was right, and very farsighted to see it.
Robin Bailey, one of my water pals, saw it coming too, and correlated with some research that the states with the fastest growing organic and sustainable agriculture were also growing the fastest in population, meaning california and florida.
Clean water, clean air, sustainable and human friendly development, and locally grown wholesome food are the trends of the future. I would bet my farm on it, but I guess I already have!!!!!
And how important do you think clean and abundant water will be in that brave new world?
I have a deep love for economic and community development, and I have been around long enough to see the biz come full circle.. a couple of times....
But I do see environmentally sustainable communities as the next wave of community development. I have to say, I was in a meeting with a fellow in Ellsworth named Jim Gray (sp?) he talked about that and how ks economy could be built on small, sustainable organic farms, animal ops, etc. At the time, I thought he was crazy, and of course, I told him so too. But I need to tell him now, a year later, that he was right, and very farsighted to see it.
Robin Bailey, one of my water pals, saw it coming too, and correlated with some research that the states with the fastest growing organic and sustainable agriculture were also growing the fastest in population, meaning california and florida.
Clean water, clean air, sustainable and human friendly development, and locally grown wholesome food are the trends of the future. I would bet my farm on it, but I guess I already have!!!!!
And how important do you think clean and abundant water will be in that brave new world?
Vaughn Tolle said:
Well, Pre, with all that they have to go through, they're coping. The WTA, IMO, did what it could to be sure these folks could get to work weekdays and Saturdays with the resources it had; unfortunately, its an added burden for the workers.
Vaughn Tolle said:
BTW, the WTA has taken a few steps to make riding the bus a bit more convenient for those who can utilize the same. First, fares were raised to $1.25 for a regular fare, one way; but there is no longer a separate charge for a transfer. Second, one may buy a "day" pass for $3.00, which save money for those who need to take the bus more than one round trip daily. Small steps, to be sure; but positive, IMHO.
A suggestion: the elder lives in Minneapolis, which has a fairly good public transportation system, as I understand it. One thing that they do is have bike racks on the front of certain buses; thus, one may "bike" to the bus stop, load the bike on the front of the bus, take the bus to a stop, disembar, unload the bike and ride the bike to the destination. Sounds like a good plan for the part of the year that the weather allows one to use a bike, etc. to get around.
A suggestion: the elder lives in Minneapolis, which has a fairly good public transportation system, as I understand it. One thing that they do is have bike racks on the front of certain buses; thus, one may "bike" to the bus stop, load the bike on the front of the bus, take the bus to a stop, disembar, unload the bike and ride the bike to the destination. Sounds like a good plan for the part of the year that the weather allows one to use a bike, etc. to get around.
lindainks55 said:
And who cleans those rooms on Sunday?
WOW! I now (thanks to your many fertile brains) have more questions than answers. Topics I hadn't known existed were touched on. See what happens when a bunch of smart people share!?
rm, why NO to all questions? Do I remember that you live on the west coast? I know you have more to share than just, "No."
lh, I know I will never get bored listening to you! So as somethng else rolls around to the front of your fertiel brain please share it.
WOW! I now (thanks to your many fertile brains) have more questions than answers. Topics I hadn't known existed were touched on. See what happens when a bunch of smart people share!?
rm, why NO to all questions? Do I remember that you live on the west coast? I know you have more to share than just, "No."
lh, I know I will never get bored listening to you! So as somethng else rolls around to the front of your fertiel brain please share it.
lindainks55 said:
I do think your brain is different lh, but that should have been fertile.
Remember I think different is really good.
Remember I think different is really good.
longhorn said:
heheheh, well to an organic farmer like me, fertile means "full of shit" literally.... Maybe I have a feral brain, not a fertile brain? I've often been accused of behaving like a wild animal!
Thanks for the complements. I'm just glad I dont turn you to a pillar of salt from boredom!
Thanks for the complements. I'm just glad I dont turn you to a pillar of salt from boredom!
Danny said:
I think what needs to happen is the region needs to work together. Getting the smaller surrounding cities to work with Wichita to make mass transit better. Further, development needs to occur downtown(which is why I am for the Arena there), and hopefully subsequent retail development that occurs.
However, if living in downtown, one needs to have a good transit system, good retail choices within walking distance, and good entertainment also within walking distance. Also, the market catered to for downtown lifestyle is different.
But improving the transit system I think is going to mostly rely on regional development and the region working together to build up the transit system. However, I think that part of the problem may be the size of Wichita. We are big, but not big enough, yet.
However, if living in downtown, one needs to have a good transit system, good retail choices within walking distance, and good entertainment also within walking distance. Also, the market catered to for downtown lifestyle is different.
But improving the transit system I think is going to mostly rely on regional development and the region working together to build up the transit system. However, I think that part of the problem may be the size of Wichita. We are big, but not big enough, yet.
longhorn said:
Well, here is Carnak's predition on regionalism in ks :)
The upcoming water wars will pit EVERY community against every other community. Size will indeed matter, as the rape of the Smoky by Hays and Russell illustrates. They are the 800lb gorillas out here in terms of water usage, with the irrigators and ethanol plants running a very close second.
And not only will there be regional conflicts surrounding water, there will be CONSTITUENT conflicts as well. I forget the order of priority of water usage right now, but I think I remember that water usage first is for municipalities, and that RECREATIONAL users are at the BOTTOM of the priority list.
So.. yer gonna have the hunting and fishing folks fighting the ethanol folks, the tourism folks fighting the municipalities and EVERYONE hates the irrigators and Kansas Farm Bureau.
Yep. Whatever gossamer webs of regionalism that have been created over the last 25 years will be ripped to SHREDS by the upcoming water wars. You can kiss cooperation goodbye when it is the very water of life that goes to the victors.
It's gonna be every community and every constituency for itself!
Can you say tyranny of the majority? If you dont believe me, look at how governor leadership's administration and the repuke controlled legislature have acted on water so far!
The upcoming water wars will pit EVERY community against every other community. Size will indeed matter, as the rape of the Smoky by Hays and Russell illustrates. They are the 800lb gorillas out here in terms of water usage, with the irrigators and ethanol plants running a very close second.
And not only will there be regional conflicts surrounding water, there will be CONSTITUENT conflicts as well. I forget the order of priority of water usage right now, but I think I remember that water usage first is for municipalities, and that RECREATIONAL users are at the BOTTOM of the priority list.
So.. yer gonna have the hunting and fishing folks fighting the ethanol folks, the tourism folks fighting the municipalities and EVERYONE hates the irrigators and Kansas Farm Bureau.
Yep. Whatever gossamer webs of regionalism that have been created over the last 25 years will be ripped to SHREDS by the upcoming water wars. You can kiss cooperation goodbye when it is the very water of life that goes to the victors.
It's gonna be every community and every constituency for itself!
Can you say tyranny of the majority? If you dont believe me, look at how governor leadership's administration and the repuke controlled legislature have acted on water so far!
longhorn said:
Damn, sorry to bring every topic back to water. But you see how it affects every since aspect of our lives, our businesses and our politics.
longhorn said:
VT, I was re-reading one of your posts, and I saw the z word. Zoning.
Now you in the more urban areas are used to zoning, but out here in the wilds, folks are NOT used to ANYONE telling them ANYTHING about what they can do with their property. They fight zoning at every turn, when in fact, it is absolutely crucial to ANY development, rural or urban.
So, I just love it that litte counties like Wallace and Sheridan piss away all kinds of money on "economic development" and "recruiting NEW industry" (heheh like they have any old industry...)
And then they piss, moan and sigh about zoning and property owners rights.
Heheheh. They'll preserve those ownership rights all the way to devaluing their property to NOTHING! That is one of the problems in putting the stop to bad irrigation. Ks is determined to make water rights a real estate issue, and property rights will extend there also. THAT will be how the Kansas Farm Bureau, the Corn Growers Assn, etc. will get the taxpayers to pay them for lost irrigation rights when the water is already owned by all the people of ks.
Jesus wept.
Now you in the more urban areas are used to zoning, but out here in the wilds, folks are NOT used to ANYONE telling them ANYTHING about what they can do with their property. They fight zoning at every turn, when in fact, it is absolutely crucial to ANY development, rural or urban.
So, I just love it that litte counties like Wallace and Sheridan piss away all kinds of money on "economic development" and "recruiting NEW industry" (heheh like they have any old industry...)
And then they piss, moan and sigh about zoning and property owners rights.
Heheheh. They'll preserve those ownership rights all the way to devaluing their property to NOTHING! That is one of the problems in putting the stop to bad irrigation. Ks is determined to make water rights a real estate issue, and property rights will extend there also. THAT will be how the Kansas Farm Bureau, the Corn Growers Assn, etc. will get the taxpayers to pay them for lost irrigation rights when the water is already owned by all the people of ks.
Jesus wept.
Vaughn Tolle said:
lh, we've already seen a precursor to this, I believe. It's been a few years ago, but I remember the City of Wichita approaching the good folks in Northeastern Kansas about potentially accessing the water in Tuttle Creek, for example, to be transported this way by pipeline, and being told, not politely, don't even bring this idea here again. Without a secure source of water, growth and development just aren't going to happen, IMHO. The water wars which are a certainty (again, my opinion) in the near future are going to leave a lot of casualties in their wake; it's not going to be pretty.
longhorn said:
The reasons counties should have zoning in place BEFORE a crisis are obvious. In the midst of a crisis, it is indeed "every man for himself". They cant make good decisions in a community during a crisis because they cant detatch their personal interests from the interests of the community at large. So the trick is to get good and reasonable zoning infrastructure in place BEFORE shit hits the fan.
Then? It can be used to keep out water hogs, windfarms, polluters, unsightly junk yards, preserve historical trails, buildings and sites, etc. The quality of life can be protected with good zoning laws.
Otherwise? Kiss goodbye any development other than ugly heavy industry or pollution generating entitites. Western Kansas is already becoming a toxic waste dump and the more urban east is already raiding our few remaining resources. I guess we get what we deserve for being stupid, short sighted and short term greedy.
Then? It can be used to keep out water hogs, windfarms, polluters, unsightly junk yards, preserve historical trails, buildings and sites, etc. The quality of life can be protected with good zoning laws.
Otherwise? Kiss goodbye any development other than ugly heavy industry or pollution generating entitites. Western Kansas is already becoming a toxic waste dump and the more urban east is already raiding our few remaining resources. I guess we get what we deserve for being stupid, short sighted and short term greedy.
longhorn said:
"Without a secure source of water, growth and development just aren't going to happen, IMHO. The water wars which are a certainty (again, my opinion) in the near future are going to leave a lot of casualties in their wake; it's not going to be pretty."
Word.
Word.
longhorn said:
VT the Tuttle Creek issue you brought up is one reason why we had to have a LAW that says you cant transfer water from one basin to another. That is why Hays and Russell were so damn stupid to buy the Circle K ranch in Edwards county. It is located in the middle ark basin, and Hays and Russell live in the Smoky basin.
OK< end water rant!
And now they want the state taxpayers to pay them $1mil over the appraised value to bail them out of their dumbass mistake.
And governor leadership and mikey boy hayden are going to let them do it. They put joe "darth cheney" harkins on the case. When he finished phucking up the water policy, the moved him to... wait for it... the new ENERGY council being headed up by the new lite gov.
They dont even BOTHER to wipe off their fingerprints in Kansas....
OK< end water rant!
And now they want the state taxpayers to pay them $1mil over the appraised value to bail them out of their dumbass mistake.
And governor leadership and mikey boy hayden are going to let them do it. They put joe "darth cheney" harkins on the case. When he finished phucking up the water policy, the moved him to... wait for it... the new ENERGY council being headed up by the new lite gov.
They dont even BOTHER to wipe off their fingerprints in Kansas....
longhorn said:
hehehe sorry, the "end water rant" comment should have been a separate post. Geez, I better eat and get outside before my BP goes up again...
rm6046 said:
I have nothing to offer. I just forgot to unclick the box "Notify...", and it's driving me nuts. As the judge told Richard Pryor, "You'll remember next time....". :)
lindainks55 said:
You didn't kill the thread! It's just that you're our expert and there are things you do other than conduct class. We're just listening and learning. Don't know what we'll do with the knowledge. Is it like going through rehab and we won't break our habits but won't be able to continue them with as much disreagrd for the facts?
Vaughn Tolle said:
One thing that does bother many bus riders here in Wichita is the ridership of folks on Work-Release, traveling to and from their day jobs. There's never been a problem with any of these guys and gals on any bus I've been riding; but, it does bother a lot of folks. Let's face it; they're not likely to be driving their own car to and from now, are they?
WSClark said:
Well, thanks a god damned bunch Linda Inks. I post an article and it gets 6 1/4 responses, four of which were mine. YOU post an article and get 60 responses in the first hour.
I think my feelings are hurt. (triple wink!)
I took the bus downtown this afternoon. If I need to go downtown, I usually take the bus to avoid parking hassles and those pesky Meter Maids. Spend a couple minutes over the limit at the Library can get you a nasty parking ticket.
So I went to the IRS today via bus. There were about six people on the bus for most of the trip - not nearly enough to call it "Mass" transit. We have to do better.
For starters, the busses need to run on Sundays. Po' folks do not become middle class on Sundays. They also need to expand the schedules so that second and third shift employees can use the service. There is not much point in taking a job if you can only take the bus TO work and then have to turn around and take a cab home.
A great number of people bitch about welfare, yada, yada, yada, but they fail to realize that it takes serious money to pull one's self out of the pit. If you do not have an automobile that runs well, you are pretty much out of luck in Wichita.
If the busses were used by (many) more people and had expanded service, it would have a great impact on the less fortunate in Wichita and ultimately lead to a drop in poverty and welfare cases.
I think my feelings are hurt. (triple wink!)
I took the bus downtown this afternoon. If I need to go downtown, I usually take the bus to avoid parking hassles and those pesky Meter Maids. Spend a couple minutes over the limit at the Library can get you a nasty parking ticket.
So I went to the IRS today via bus. There were about six people on the bus for most of the trip - not nearly enough to call it "Mass" transit. We have to do better.
For starters, the busses need to run on Sundays. Po' folks do not become middle class on Sundays. They also need to expand the schedules so that second and third shift employees can use the service. There is not much point in taking a job if you can only take the bus TO work and then have to turn around and take a cab home.
A great number of people bitch about welfare, yada, yada, yada, but they fail to realize that it takes serious money to pull one's self out of the pit. If you do not have an automobile that runs well, you are pretty much out of luck in Wichita.
If the busses were used by (many) more people and had expanded service, it would have a great impact on the less fortunate in Wichita and ultimately lead to a drop in poverty and welfare cases.
longhorn said:
Housing and transportation go hand in hand. The answer isnt in running big assed buses that are 3/4 empty. Riding in a van, or a little bus (ok, short bus hehehe) is preferable and more economical and can emit fewer fumes. Smaller, faster, lighter and run more frequent routes will build ridership. Great service, dependability, and rising personal transportation costs will keep ridership.
But it will need to be publicly financed, at least for awhile. It will take some time for it to break even or become revenue neutral.
But it will need to be publicly financed, at least for awhile. It will take some time for it to break even or become revenue neutral.
WSClark said:
I know the WTC Service is subsidized, but I am not sure to what extent. It is my understanding that it is a big time $$$ loser. In order for it to work, the has to be an incentive for folks to use the service.
For one thing, most all of the busses are routed to and from the downtown facility. If you are SE and want to go NE, you still have to go Downtown, unless you can pick up the Rock Road Shuttle.
If Wichita wants to grow, the city "fathers" could do a lot worse than look into making the transit system a world class operation.
We are not San Francisco by any means, but they have the best Mass Transit system that I have ever used. Park your car, take the BART on into Union Station, take a bus or trolley to get around town, take the BART back to your car at the end of the day.
The system works and you see folks from every walk of life using all of the Mass Transit options.
For one thing, most all of the busses are routed to and from the downtown facility. If you are SE and want to go NE, you still have to go Downtown, unless you can pick up the Rock Road Shuttle.
If Wichita wants to grow, the city "fathers" could do a lot worse than look into making the transit system a world class operation.
We are not San Francisco by any means, but they have the best Mass Transit system that I have ever used. Park your car, take the BART on into Union Station, take a bus or trolley to get around town, take the BART back to your car at the end of the day.
The system works and you see folks from every walk of life using all of the Mass Transit options.
WS Clark said:
If you truly want to see "Mass Transit" at it's very worst, take a cross country trip via Greyhound.
About eighteen months ago, my a-mother was fading fast due to a twenty year bout with cancer. I tried to convince my a-father to move her to Hospice so that her final days would be under the best care, but he refused, choosing to ignore the finality of her condition. He had asked that I be available to go down to Florida to "help out."
I continually asked him if I should come down, but he rebuffed my offers. Finally, on a Friday afternoon, he told me that I should probably come down the next week.
Because of the uncertainty of my trip, I chose to take Greyhound down to Florida, not knowing when I could return. I left Wichita at about midnight on a Saturday night. I finally arrived in Central Florida mid-afternoon on Monday, unfortunately less than an hour after my mother died.
The trip was the absolute worst that I have ever experienced. The staff at Greyhound treated the passengers like they were cattle. The passengers themselves acted like they were a lower class than cattle. The facilities were horrendous and the buses were even worse.
Every politician running for office should be required to take a cross country trip via Greyhound before taking office. Maybe then, they would realize how harmful the right wing approach to our citizenry has been. Maybe then, they would understand how we need to judge ourselves based on the least of us.
When it came time to come home from Florida, I chose to take a flight out of Orlando.
About eighteen months ago, my a-mother was fading fast due to a twenty year bout with cancer. I tried to convince my a-father to move her to Hospice so that her final days would be under the best care, but he refused, choosing to ignore the finality of her condition. He had asked that I be available to go down to Florida to "help out."
I continually asked him if I should come down, but he rebuffed my offers. Finally, on a Friday afternoon, he told me that I should probably come down the next week.
Because of the uncertainty of my trip, I chose to take Greyhound down to Florida, not knowing when I could return. I left Wichita at about midnight on a Saturday night. I finally arrived in Central Florida mid-afternoon on Monday, unfortunately less than an hour after my mother died.
The trip was the absolute worst that I have ever experienced. The staff at Greyhound treated the passengers like they were cattle. The passengers themselves acted like they were a lower class than cattle. The facilities were horrendous and the buses were even worse.
Every politician running for office should be required to take a cross country trip via Greyhound before taking office. Maybe then, they would realize how harmful the right wing approach to our citizenry has been. Maybe then, they would understand how we need to judge ourselves based on the least of us.
When it came time to come home from Florida, I chose to take a flight out of Orlando.
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