"Obviously"
International News"Obviously we trespassed into their waters," Turney said. "They were very friendly and very hospitable, very thoughtful, nice people. They explained to us why we've been arrested. There was no harm, no aggression."
Leading Seaman Faye Turney, the only female UK Sailor in the group of 15 Sailors and Marines, was shown on Iranian TV "confessing" to trespassing in Iranian waters, "obviously".
The Brits have said over and over again they have GPS data concluding they were in Iraqi waters, no question. This is nothing more than a childish act by the Iranian government who is attempting to get the UK to capitulate. They had originally agreed to release Turney, but now, because of the British government's reaction to the incident and their "behavior", the Iranians have suspended that decision.
I don't know if the Iranians live in some sort of fantasy world or what, but the UK doesn't play that kind of ball game. The Falkland Islands, anyone? The British Crown sends an entire naval battlegroup across the planet to defend two miles of rock they call an Island with some 200 people living there?
That confession, if you can call it that, was "obviously" coerced. I can just imagine the gunman in a turbine behind the camera pointing his AK-47 at her head.
This is going to end badly.
~Dubya
Vaughn Tolle said:
Yes, Dubya, the "confession" was coerced; and yes, it appears this will end badly. No question there in my mind.
I recall reading/hearing that the forces involved in the capture of the UK troops were under the control of the Grand Ayatollah and not the Iranian president. This reflects, to my mind, the apparent split within Iran and the religious component dangerously involved in the final determination of the matter.
I recall reading/hearing that the forces involved in the capture of the UK troops were under the control of the Grand Ayatollah and not the Iranian president. This reflects, to my mind, the apparent split within Iran and the religious component dangerously involved in the final determination of the matter.
longhorn said:
Dubya, vt, I hope you are sitting down for what I am about to say :)
I dont think this will end badly. I think it will end with a whimper not a bang.
I think it is a trial balloon. And I dont think either side liked the polling data. I think they will compromise and all will end well. Unless Iran has a nuke stashed somewhere and this is a Trojan horse of sorts.
Besides, it made a great bright and shiney object to detract from the other scandals, hearings, and headlines this week!
I dont think this will end badly. I think it will end with a whimper not a bang.
I think it is a trial balloon. And I dont think either side liked the polling data. I think they will compromise and all will end well. Unless Iran has a nuke stashed somewhere and this is a Trojan horse of sorts.
Besides, it made a great bright and shiney object to detract from the other scandals, hearings, and headlines this week!
Gster said:
I don't know how you can deal diplomatically with these "people" that ,do not have the Rule of Law , whose word is worthless, and are essentially uncivilized.
Is there such a thing as "feral people"?
I think all the people in that area that share that religion and culture are disfunctional!
Is there such a thing as "feral people"?
I think all the people in that area that share that religion and culture are disfunctional!
longhorn said:
Well VT, I could be wrong :) Maybe Iran knows something we dont know about US plans for Iran. April 6 draws ever nearer, and maybe they thought they better grab some human shields in a hurry. Brits cover two bases as opposed to american hostages.
If Iran is grabbing these Brits as human shields, then I agree, this will end badly.
I just think they all whipped out their weenies to compare size, and decided that NO ONE had a weenie big enough to continue. :) They will whip them back in anytime now.
If Iran is grabbing these Brits as human shields, then I agree, this will end badly.
I just think they all whipped out their weenies to compare size, and decided that NO ONE had a weenie big enough to continue. :) They will whip them back in anytime now.
longhorn said:
Gster, with all due respect and not as a joke...
"I don't know how you can deal diplomatically with these "people" that ,do not have the Rule of Law , whose word is worthless, and are essentially uncivilized."
Dont you think that is what most of the world thinks of US under bushco?
"I don't know how you can deal diplomatically with these "people" that ,do not have the Rule of Law , whose word is worthless, and are essentially uncivilized."
Dont you think that is what most of the world thinks of US under bushco?
Gster said:
LH -I see your point. Our reputation and standing in the world was the first thing Bush flushed, althogh I think the US is thought of as having more integrity than our dress wearing friends in the ME.
There is a differnce between diagreement and irrationality.
There is a differnce between diagreement and irrationality.
lindainks55 said:
Remember when lh was talking earlier this week about being wrong vs. incorrect? Seems neither side wants to be wrong and isn't going to admit to being incorrect.
The whole PNAC plan was interrupted by the failures of the bushco war in Iraq. They were supposed to be in control of more by now. I'm not usually so cynical, but if the U.K. needs American help isn't that one way to wage war with Iran without as much uproar from the American people?
The whole PNAC plan was interrupted by the failures of the bushco war in Iraq. They were supposed to be in control of more by now. I'm not usually so cynical, but if the U.K. needs American help isn't that one way to wage war with Iran without as much uproar from the American people?
Gster said:
Linda- You may be right. I don't think Bush is this subtle, but I wouldn't put anything past "buckshot" Cheney!
It makes you wonder how quiet things would be if the oil simply went away.
It makes you wonder how quiet things would be if the oil simply went away.
Predestined said:
"I think all the people in that area that share that religion and culture are disfunctional!"
According to whom? According to what standards?
Sorry, gster, my friend. Like LH, I can't totally agree with that. Yes, there are fanatics who appear feral to us. Yes, there are some who I think are nutso. But the people as a whole are peaceful and usually keep to themselves...until they are riled up by attacks. On their own, without interference, they function within their own religion and culture quite well. It's when outsiders come in to make them adhere to foreign ideas that they get beligerant. To be honest, I would, too.
According to whom? According to what standards?
Sorry, gster, my friend. Like LH, I can't totally agree with that. Yes, there are fanatics who appear feral to us. Yes, there are some who I think are nutso. But the people as a whole are peaceful and usually keep to themselves...until they are riled up by attacks. On their own, without interference, they function within their own religion and culture quite well. It's when outsiders come in to make them adhere to foreign ideas that they get beligerant. To be honest, I would, too.
longhorn said:
Actually, I kinda agree with all you. I'm feeling very Swiss today. :) I totally agree with this Gster:
"There is a differnce between diagreement and irrationality."
But I think the world sees us as formerly rational disagreers with the hope of returning there. But I do think they see bushco as irrational, and who the hell could look at their handiwork or lack of it and not agree?
I think when world leaders are holding meetings to decide how to "handle" the US and it's apparant rampage in the ME, it's a pretty good sign that our word doesnt mean a thing to them.
At the risk of going back to my flame throwing ways (I promise to remain calm) I see the common denomonator of the problem as religion and religious fanatics, both theirs and ours!
Their religious nut jobs want something that our religious nut jobs dont like, and vice versa. I have long contended that the most dangerous person in the world is either someone who does something in the name of whatever god, or someone who has nothing to lose. Or, worst of all? The person who fits both bills.
Sound familiar? If they have indeed been bombed back into the stone age, and they cant get off the first level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I'd say that makes them the uber dangerous third who fits both bills. Throw in a little religious fundamentalism as yeast, and...
... we wonder why danger is rising?
"There is a differnce between diagreement and irrationality."
But I think the world sees us as formerly rational disagreers with the hope of returning there. But I do think they see bushco as irrational, and who the hell could look at their handiwork or lack of it and not agree?
I think when world leaders are holding meetings to decide how to "handle" the US and it's apparant rampage in the ME, it's a pretty good sign that our word doesnt mean a thing to them.
At the risk of going back to my flame throwing ways (I promise to remain calm) I see the common denomonator of the problem as religion and religious fanatics, both theirs and ours!
Their religious nut jobs want something that our religious nut jobs dont like, and vice versa. I have long contended that the most dangerous person in the world is either someone who does something in the name of whatever god, or someone who has nothing to lose. Or, worst of all? The person who fits both bills.
Sound familiar? If they have indeed been bombed back into the stone age, and they cant get off the first level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I'd say that makes them the uber dangerous third who fits both bills. Throw in a little religious fundamentalism as yeast, and...
... we wonder why danger is rising?
Gster said:
I guess I'm tired and fed up with all things Arabic, Islamic,and Middle Eastern. Nothing is ever enough, and the upside down convoluted thinking they do causes me vertigo.
I'm not closed minded; I've spent years overseas in 3 countries and loved every minute of it.
Iraq is going to be resolved by a civil war, and then the next thug will take over and the cycle begins again. IMHO
I'm not closed minded; I've spent years overseas in 3 countries and loved every minute of it.
Iraq is going to be resolved by a civil war, and then the next thug will take over and the cycle begins again. IMHO
longhorn said:
I agree Gster. That is why it is such folly for us to try and "bring them democracy" American style. They just cant function with a superimposed system like that. It pretty much as to grow organic with them, and right now it looks to me like the US is salting the earth underneath them so NOTHING will grow there.
And since humans abhor a power vac, some thug will come along to fill it by rule of blood, not law and democracy. THEY have to make the choice and then live into it. We cant do it for them.
And besides, I think in the Democracy and Rule of Law department, our own back steps need a little sweeeping....
And since humans abhor a power vac, some thug will come along to fill it by rule of blood, not law and democracy. THEY have to make the choice and then live into it. We cant do it for them.
And besides, I think in the Democracy and Rule of Law department, our own back steps need a little sweeeping....
Gster said:
LH- Right. Nothing will ever change viz-a-viz governing until there is a disconnect beteew religion and the concept of state. Now they are synonymous , and nothing will change- they are stuck in the 6th Century.
longhorn said:
And you were right, Gster, about something else. Without oil, they'd have several million square miles of kitty litter.
When all it appeared they HAD was kitty litter, we didnt give a happy rat buggering what happened to them. When we needed their oil, we raped them. When their oil is gone, we will go back to not giving a happy rat fu, er buggering again.
And the world keeps spinning.
When all it appeared they HAD was kitty litter, we didnt give a happy rat buggering what happened to them. When we needed their oil, we raped them. When their oil is gone, we will go back to not giving a happy rat fu, er buggering again.
And the world keeps spinning.
Gster said:
LH- Make used kitty litter.
I've often thought the only things that have come from the ME is the decimal system, chess and the oil we found for them!
I've often thought the only things that have come from the ME is the decimal system, chess and the oil we found for them!
Vaughn Tolle said:
I note from cnn.com that Leading Seaman Turley has allegedly penned another letter, this one requesting the Brits to withdraw from Iraq ASAP. I suspect this one wasn't exactly a freely written letter, either, assuming arguendo she actually penned the same.
longhorn said:
"assuming arguendo" heheheheh. Uh Vaughn, button up. Yer law degree is showing again. heheheheeh. Just kidding, like the budweiser guys, I love you man!
longhorn said:
So... the Brits say they were in Iraqi waters. And the capturing Iranians say they want the Brits out of Iraq? You dont suppose the captors are actually Iraqi's do you? I know you said you thought they were under the control of the religous leaders, not the secular government. Could it be?
OK farmie, put down the conspiracy theories and slowly back away....
OK farmie, put down the conspiracy theories and slowly back away....
lindainks55 said:
Don't you have to whip up a lot of vitriol to get most people hating enough to purposely kill another human being? Hasn't religion been used for this purpose in every war since the beginning of time -- back to the Crusades? I am such a passivist! I don't want to understand war, don't want it happening, like to not think about it.
So, lh, when I read your words, "Their religious nut jobs want something that our religious nut jobs don’t like, and vice versa," that made perfect sense to me about the war troubles we're facing.
i can’t walk in the rain anymore
when all the clouds are crying
my pain is too personal
to be as public as a thunderstorm
Me and God have been on the outs for awhile now. Things I took for granted and didn't question for most of my life now seem too impossible to believe. I am spiritual and very moral, but not religious. This doesn't feel like a problem to me, just a fact that is different than what was most of my life.
I read (somewhere, wish I could find the where): "I am a lapsed agnostic. I'm not sure what it is I don't believe." I laughed but I also understood those words.
It isn't easy for to find words for something I don't understand myself. I know organized religion isn't for me and no matter what solution I find for my questions it won't be back to organized religion. Maybe I'll take time to study a flower and reflect on the perfection of nature before man interfered... Maybe I'll just study my navel.
So, lh, when I read your words, "Their religious nut jobs want something that our religious nut jobs don’t like, and vice versa," that made perfect sense to me about the war troubles we're facing.
i can’t walk in the rain anymore
when all the clouds are crying
my pain is too personal
to be as public as a thunderstorm
Me and God have been on the outs for awhile now. Things I took for granted and didn't question for most of my life now seem too impossible to believe. I am spiritual and very moral, but not religious. This doesn't feel like a problem to me, just a fact that is different than what was most of my life.
I read (somewhere, wish I could find the where): "I am a lapsed agnostic. I'm not sure what it is I don't believe." I laughed but I also understood those words.
It isn't easy for to find words for something I don't understand myself. I know organized religion isn't for me and no matter what solution I find for my questions it won't be back to organized religion. Maybe I'll take time to study a flower and reflect on the perfection of nature before man interfered... Maybe I'll just study my navel.
longhorn said:
They are all perfect blossoms Linda. :) Have you ever seen The Last Samuri? Heheheh> I'd study my navel if it ever reappeared. Clark says all his weight gain since he quit smoking has gone to his navel. heheheh
Where is Clark today? Back in the belly of the beast?
Where is Clark today? Back in the belly of the beast?
Vaughn Tolle said:
Yeah, lh, I believe he said he had to return to IRS.
Linda, count me in as a "lapsed agnostic" as well.
Linda, count me in as a "lapsed agnostic" as well.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Y'all gotta admit that "arguendo" requires fewer keystrokes than "for the sake of argument". :-)
Gster said:
VT- I see the light- you're right. And to think I took latin.
I like the "lapsed agnostic" too.
I, like everyone else, do not know if God exists, in spite of what they might say.
If He does, I've often thought:
1. He's been out of town a lot.
2. He needs a refresher course.
I like the "lapsed agnostic" too.
I, like everyone else, do not know if God exists, in spite of what they might say.
If He does, I've often thought:
1. He's been out of town a lot.
2. He needs a refresher course.
Vaughn Tolle said:
One from the college days:
"Dear God, if there is a God; save my soul, if I have a soul".
"Dear God, if there is a God; save my soul, if I have a soul".
Dubya said:
"I don't know how you can deal diplomatically with these "people" that ,do not have the Rule of Law , whose word is worthless, and are essentially uncivilized."
I wouldn't personally go that far. Islam is a belief set just like Christianity. The only people who KNOW they're right are dead.
The FANATICS are giving the otherwise peaceful religion of Islam a very bad name. To the uneducated, you can be told anything and if enough people say the same thing, you'll begin to believe. MANY Muslims can't even read the Koran; taking their Faith based on what these radicals are telling them.
I don't think personally believe the Muslims, Islam, or the Middle East are any better or worse than the rest of the world; it's just unfortunate that some David Koresh of Islam managed to weaponize the Koran.
~Dubya
I wouldn't personally go that far. Islam is a belief set just like Christianity. The only people who KNOW they're right are dead.
The FANATICS are giving the otherwise peaceful religion of Islam a very bad name. To the uneducated, you can be told anything and if enough people say the same thing, you'll begin to believe. MANY Muslims can't even read the Koran; taking their Faith based on what these radicals are telling them.
I don't think personally believe the Muslims, Islam, or the Middle East are any better or worse than the rest of the world; it's just unfortunate that some David Koresh of Islam managed to weaponize the Koran.
~Dubya
rm6046 said:
"David Koresh of Islam", my ass........for fifteen hundred years??? No way, Dubya. This is a huge throng of people, generations after generations, whose goal is to rid the world of (a)non-Muslim infidels, and (b)not-of-their sect Muslim infidels. The only way to deal with these people is by the sword. It's all they understand. And they have no rules. This is why we will never defeat them by conventional means.
Do you think the group that attacked us on 9/11 were concerned about "collateral damage"? Hell, no. But we feel like we have to be concerned about such things. In a theocracy, there are no "collaterals" -- if they're Muslim, they're the enemy ... and should be treated as such, if we're going to be there at all. Which we shouldn't.
If we were going to take them down, we should have done it when they nationalized our oil developments, not propped up puppets like the Shah, back in the '50's. What is happening today was fated 50 years ago.
Do you think the group that attacked us on 9/11 were concerned about "collateral damage"? Hell, no. But we feel like we have to be concerned about such things. In a theocracy, there are no "collaterals" -- if they're Muslim, they're the enemy ... and should be treated as such, if we're going to be there at all. Which we shouldn't.
If we were going to take them down, we should have done it when they nationalized our oil developments, not propped up puppets like the Shah, back in the '50's. What is happening today was fated 50 years ago.
rm6046 said:
And, Dubya, the "Big Lie" theory is not perpetrated only upon the illiterate...witness: Nazi Germany 1926-1939;
The Domino Theory USA 1950-1990+, and the list could go on and on and on, ad nauseum.
The Domino Theory USA 1950-1990+, and the list could go on and on and on, ad nauseum.
.morg said:
Daily dose of Al Jazeera:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D882154A-68...
Another confession from a marine
If we were going to take them down, we should have done it when they nationalized our oil developments, not propped up puppets like the Shah, back in the '50's. What is happening today was fated 50 years ago.
Posted By rm6046 | 3/29/07 5:46 PM
our oil developements? I don't recall being issued stock when I was born.That's part of the risk working under another countries rules they can change.Or is it a commie system that we operate under now.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D882154A-68...
Another confession from a marine
If we were going to take them down, we should have done it when they nationalized our oil developments, not propped up puppets like the Shah, back in the '50's. What is happening today was fated 50 years ago.
Posted By rm6046 | 3/29/07 5:46 PM
our oil developements? I don't recall being issued stock when I was born.That's part of the risk working under another countries rules they can change.Or is it a commie system that we operate under now.
Gster said:
Don't forget, these fine folks are the ones that over ran and took our embassy in Tehran , and kidnapped 440 people. That violation of International law and the tenets of diplomacy, show their contempt for law.
I'm still amazed they don't live in caves!
I'm still amazed they don't live in caves!
.morg said:
Gster,
Those would be cave dwellers have gotten the price of crude up over 66 dollars a barrel.That should get us over 3 dollars a gallon for gasoline.That will be an additional drag on an already weak economy.
World economic disruption so simple even a cave man can do it.Don't under estimate your opponents. Remenber Iraq.
Those would be cave dwellers have gotten the price of crude up over 66 dollars a barrel.That should get us over 3 dollars a gallon for gasoline.That will be an additional drag on an already weak economy.
World economic disruption so simple even a cave man can do it.Don't under estimate your opponents. Remenber Iraq.
Gster said:
Morg- That's true. Their oil revenues have been declining annually due to ongoing infrastructure problems, aggravated by the embargo. Their national economy is in big trouble!
Dubya said:
I again refer to that completely appropriate quote from Syriana:
"But what do you need a financial advisor for? Twenty years ago you had the highest Gross National Product in the world, now you're tied with Albania. Your second largest export is secondhand goods, closely followed by dates which you're losing five cents a pound on... You know what the business community thinks of you? They think that a hundred years ago you were living in tents out here in the desert chopping each other's heads off and that's where you'll be in another hundred years, so on behalf of my firm I accept your offer." ~Bryan Woodman as played by Matt Damon, Syriana, 2005
:)
"But what do you need a financial advisor for? Twenty years ago you had the highest Gross National Product in the world, now you're tied with Albania. Your second largest export is secondhand goods, closely followed by dates which you're losing five cents a pound on... You know what the business community thinks of you? They think that a hundred years ago you were living in tents out here in the desert chopping each other's heads off and that's where you'll be in another hundred years, so on behalf of my firm I accept your offer." ~Bryan Woodman as played by Matt Damon, Syriana, 2005
:)
Vaughn Tolle said:
The Iranians are, it appears, increasing the pressure; another "letter" from Able Seaman Turley; and, a "confession" from another Brit being held.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/30/iran.uk....
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/30/iran.uk....
rm6046 said:
Yes, morg, OUR oil developments. OUR technology. OUR equipment. OUR expertise. If it hadn't been for us, that oil would still be under two or three or four miles of sand, and they would still be living in mud huts or tents and humping their goats and camels. We knew that nationalization was probable, at some point, and operated on a theory of making enough to justify the ultimate loss at the point of nationalization. The part that was overlooked was that they didn't have the trained technicians to keep the oil flowing, so then they had to contract American companies to retain the infrastructure. Now, since they've kicked us out, their production decreases daily. That's why we have $66/bbl oil. In other words, their INCOMPETENCE has driven the price upwards.
If we had taken them out, back in the 50's, you wouldn't be cringing every time you go to the gas station, friend. Sorry that you were born to late to get in on some of that stock. :)
If we had taken them out, back in the 50's, you wouldn't be cringing every time you go to the gas station, friend. Sorry that you were born to late to get in on some of that stock. :)
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