Vaughn Tolle said:
Well, breaking news for all WSU basketball fans out there; just heard that Arkansas has hired Dana Altman from Creighton as its new basketball coach.
lindainks55 said:
Good morning. Thanks for the new Open Thread! I appreciate ALL you've done to be a most-kind host.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all those presidential candidates from all parties would give those millions they've raised to a good cause? I heard this morning Hillary has raised $27million. Others have raised huge amounts too, that is the only figure I remembered from the news cast. That amount boggles my mind, guess it's more than a few dollars, huh!?
When Ginger (she is the beautiful blonde who walks me as often as possible) and I were in the park this morning the henbit and dandelions looked beautiful! They are weeds in my yard, beautiful in the park. Hmmmm.
Article in the paper this morning about the comeback of al-Qaida and the fact the group has new leaders. Said something about the surprise and dismay within American intelligence agencies about the group's ability to rebound. We sure need some new people in intel if this surprises anyone. They've always been in line to take over! I'm not near anything pretending to be intelligent and know that!
I'm off to do some more cleaning up in the yard. I do a bit; rest a bit -- the joy of retirement. I am blessed!
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all those presidential candidates from all parties would give those millions they've raised to a good cause? I heard this morning Hillary has raised $27million. Others have raised huge amounts too, that is the only figure I remembered from the news cast. That amount boggles my mind, guess it's more than a few dollars, huh!?
When Ginger (she is the beautiful blonde who walks me as often as possible) and I were in the park this morning the henbit and dandelions looked beautiful! They are weeds in my yard, beautiful in the park. Hmmmm.
Article in the paper this morning about the comeback of al-Qaida and the fact the group has new leaders. Said something about the surprise and dismay within American intelligence agencies about the group's ability to rebound. We sure need some new people in intel if this surprises anyone. They've always been in line to take over! I'm not near anything pretending to be intelligent and know that!
I'm off to do some more cleaning up in the yard. I do a bit; rest a bit -- the joy of retirement. I am blessed!
longhorn said:
HI Folks. Well, it looks like some folks are finally waking up to the fact that not only has America outsources its jobs, its manufacturing, and its government, but we also outsourced our food supply a long time ago.
Interesting comments regarding the contaminated gluten that killed pets also being in the human food supply.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboa...
And another interesting link to The Seven Deadly Myths of Industrial Agriculture. Did I say "buy local"? :)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboa...
Interesting comments regarding the contaminated gluten that killed pets also being in the human food supply.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboa...
And another interesting link to The Seven Deadly Myths of Industrial Agriculture. Did I say "buy local"? :)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboa...
longhorn said:
...and from the "it's about damn time" department
Southern political power at its lowest point in 50 years?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/legislativ...
Southern political power at its lowest point in 50 years?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/legislativ...
longhorn said:
Here ya go Linda and Tracy. Fresh kill about why ALL stem cell research should be supported.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070402/ts_afp/britai...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070402/ts_afp/britai...
Dubya said:
Correct me if I'm wrong; I'm not as hip to stem cell research as I should be, but isn't the biggest opposition to stem cell research the fact that they were using embryos as the test bed?
That's no longer the case, they are able to use cells from all kinds of places including umbilical cords tissue (among others) to the same effect....so what's the issue?
~Dubya
That's no longer the case, they are able to use cells from all kinds of places including umbilical cords tissue (among others) to the same effect....so what's the issue?
~Dubya
longhorn said:
Jesus apparantly doesnt like stem cell research. Or so the faithful say. It is a religious issue, not a scientific one. Just like global warming. And gay marriage. And... hell. Pick one.
Predestined said:
LH, you forgot gambling. ;) I see that Terry Fox is gearing up to fight that now.
Jesus wept.
Dubya, I'm not all that "up" on stem cell info either, but I believe I've heard that embryonic cells are the best for certain things. I could be wrong, and if I learn that I am, I'll let you know. :)
Jesus wept.
Dubya, I'm not all that "up" on stem cell info either, but I believe I've heard that embryonic cells are the best for certain things. I could be wrong, and if I learn that I am, I'll let you know. :)
Vaughn Tolle said:
While the media seems to be concentrating today on the SCOTUS decision regarding the automobile emissions issue, SCOTUS ruled 9-0 against Duke Energy on the retrofitting of aging coal fired power plants to reduce NOx, et al. This, to me, is perhaps the more important decision.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/04/02/scotus.dukeenerg...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/04/02/scotus.dukeenerg...
TRACY said:
Thanks, LH.
Since the damned Jayhawks lost out, here we go Ms. Inks....
GO STEM CELL RESEARCH! GO!
I don't agree with the wierdo fundies anyway.
Jesus LOVES healing.
Jesus LOVES people healing people.
Jesus says that if ya' need a microscope to find it,
it ain't a baby!
Jesus is on our side Ms. Inks.
Ask him, he'll tell ya.
Since the damned Jayhawks lost out, here we go Ms. Inks....
GO STEM CELL RESEARCH! GO!
I don't agree with the wierdo fundies anyway.
Jesus LOVES healing.
Jesus LOVES people healing people.
Jesus says that if ya' need a microscope to find it,
it ain't a baby!
Jesus is on our side Ms. Inks.
Ask him, he'll tell ya.
Fundie said:
(Long time reader, first time poster)Please excuse misspellings, run on sentences, and poor grammer. My 5th grade teacher will kill me!!!
The issue simply breaks down to "when do you think life begins". The "Fundies", myself included, believe that conception is the starting point. Argue that all you want but that is the issue, not womens rights, or poverty or religion. Our concience forms our position, and our faith (atleast partially) forms our concience. Since I (we) hold that view then I (we)must say that embrionic stem cell research is wrong. However this study appears to have used stem cells from bone marrow, which is wonderfull news.
thank you
The issue simply breaks down to "when do you think life begins". The "Fundies", myself included, believe that conception is the starting point. Argue that all you want but that is the issue, not womens rights, or poverty or religion. Our concience forms our position, and our faith (atleast partially) forms our concience. Since I (we) hold that view then I (we)must say that embrionic stem cell research is wrong. However this study appears to have used stem cells from bone marrow, which is wonderfull news.
thank you
lindainks55 said:
There are many different stem cells, embryonic (the controversial ones) among the many kinds. Stem cells can be found in our fat -- boy would I line up to be a donor... Those found in our fat (AND many other places in the human body) are called adult stem cells (ASC). To date scientists haven't been able to get an adult stem cell to differentiate itself or become something different than where it originated. There are stem cells in umbilical cords but they have already decided to be blood cells. That doesn't mean they aren't beneficial! They are. There are several blood disorders (like leukemia) being treated with adult stem cells. Embryonic stem cells (ESC) live long periods of time without differentiating and have the greatest potential of being coaxed into a wide variety of specialized cell types.
ES cell research originated in 1998 (about 9 years ago). AS cell research first started in the 1940s and only matured into conventional therapy in the 1970s (with a high failure rate). Only in the last 10 to 15 years has AS cell therapy started to become somewhat routine for some diseases.
Opponents of ESC research will tell you there have been recent successes in reprogramming adult stem cells (making them something they weren't). Yes, but how are these cells reprogrammed? By injecting their nuclei into egg cells or enucleated ES cells. This is known as "nuclear transfer" (i.e., cloning). There is something about egg cells and ES cells that causes chromatin remodeling, such that genes that are permanently turned off in an adult cell can be turned back on. No one knows the mechanisms controlling this phenomenon. And certainly no one wants you to know the only way they coax an ASC to be something different is by using an ESC.
No one doubts that adult stem cells have been useful for treating some diseases. But there are many diseases that cannot be treated by AS cells.
What is absolutely certain is that no adult stem cells have ever been shown to generate tissues or complex organs, while ES cells have in animals. This is the most significant limitation of AS cells - they cannot be used for generating organs in the laboratory; only ES cells can. In addition, with nuclear transfer it is possible to generate genetically-identical replacement organs. But because this is cloning we are full circle back to the controversy and limited funding.
Lack of federal funding isn't about Republicans. It is about THIS PRESIDENT. It is about this president pandering to a group of people. Both houses of Congress passed funding bills -- THIS PRESIDENT vetoed that legislation.
There is NO reason to halt research on ES cells as long as scientists continue to find promise in it. And yes, research can and does go on with private funds but make no mistake, the ultimate goal of religious fundamentalists is to halt the research. Short of that they throw up every road block they can beginning with making it difficult to get funding. The Federal Government is in the habit of funding all manner of scientific research to the tune of billions of dollars. Whenever you see one specific line of research singled out like this there is always political motivation behind it.
IF you have other questions and want to encourage me, I can go onandonandon. tehe Honestly, folks, the bottom line is an overwhelming majority of scientists want research on ALL types of stem cells to go forward. Yes, you will find dissenters who also happen to be scientists. I'm sure you'll find people with different views in any category you name. And, we probably all agree that scientists know more than politicians about this subject. So, get the politics out of it and let the scientists do their work!
ES cell research originated in 1998 (about 9 years ago). AS cell research first started in the 1940s and only matured into conventional therapy in the 1970s (with a high failure rate). Only in the last 10 to 15 years has AS cell therapy started to become somewhat routine for some diseases.
Opponents of ESC research will tell you there have been recent successes in reprogramming adult stem cells (making them something they weren't). Yes, but how are these cells reprogrammed? By injecting their nuclei into egg cells or enucleated ES cells. This is known as "nuclear transfer" (i.e., cloning). There is something about egg cells and ES cells that causes chromatin remodeling, such that genes that are permanently turned off in an adult cell can be turned back on. No one knows the mechanisms controlling this phenomenon. And certainly no one wants you to know the only way they coax an ASC to be something different is by using an ESC.
No one doubts that adult stem cells have been useful for treating some diseases. But there are many diseases that cannot be treated by AS cells.
What is absolutely certain is that no adult stem cells have ever been shown to generate tissues or complex organs, while ES cells have in animals. This is the most significant limitation of AS cells - they cannot be used for generating organs in the laboratory; only ES cells can. In addition, with nuclear transfer it is possible to generate genetically-identical replacement organs. But because this is cloning we are full circle back to the controversy and limited funding.
Lack of federal funding isn't about Republicans. It is about THIS PRESIDENT. It is about this president pandering to a group of people. Both houses of Congress passed funding bills -- THIS PRESIDENT vetoed that legislation.
There is NO reason to halt research on ES cells as long as scientists continue to find promise in it. And yes, research can and does go on with private funds but make no mistake, the ultimate goal of religious fundamentalists is to halt the research. Short of that they throw up every road block they can beginning with making it difficult to get funding. The Federal Government is in the habit of funding all manner of scientific research to the tune of billions of dollars. Whenever you see one specific line of research singled out like this there is always political motivation behind it.
IF you have other questions and want to encourage me, I can go onandonandon. tehe Honestly, folks, the bottom line is an overwhelming majority of scientists want research on ALL types of stem cells to go forward. Yes, you will find dissenters who also happen to be scientists. I'm sure you'll find people with different views in any category you name. And, we probably all agree that scientists know more than politicians about this subject. So, get the politics out of it and let the scientists do their work!
TRACY said:
Fundie, regardless of your religous affiliations,
you are correct.
Correct in the fact that the ethics question is about when something becomes HUMAN.
Human denotes not only conciousness, but SELF conciousness.
I challenge ANY science, religion or group to define that. If we could, there would be no argument.
Until, then, I'll keep repeating my crappy redneck philosphy. If ya' need a microscope........
Ms. Inks....ROCK ON!
you are correct.
Correct in the fact that the ethics question is about when something becomes HUMAN.
Human denotes not only conciousness, but SELF conciousness.
I challenge ANY science, religion or group to define that. If we could, there would be no argument.
Until, then, I'll keep repeating my crappy redneck philosphy. If ya' need a microscope........
Ms. Inks....ROCK ON!
Fundie said:
You are changing the arguement, and putting the ends before the means. The arguement is with when life begins. Not what we can do with it after the fact.
Fundie said:
By using your logic i could argue that KU will be the NCAA basketball champions because watching them dismantle Florida would bring the most happiness to the most people.
Now that doesn't make much sense does it.
Now that doesn't make much sense does it.
lindainks55 said:
Fundie,
I think morality is too personal for open debate. Each of us makes that decision for ourselves. And, once made none of us has the right to judge the others decision.
Now, on to the funding of embryonic stem cell research with federal money:
The funding bill passed by both houses of Congress and vetoed by THIS PRESIDENT provided federal money to study embryonic stem cells derived ONLY from left over blastocysts at fertility clinics. Hundreds of thousands left over blastocysts (EMBRYOES) are thrown away each year as medical waste.
So, is it more about HOW they are destroyed than the fact that they are? Why is OK with you that these left-over blastocysts are thrown in the trash?
I think morality is too personal for open debate. Each of us makes that decision for ourselves. And, once made none of us has the right to judge the others decision.
Now, on to the funding of embryonic stem cell research with federal money:
The funding bill passed by both houses of Congress and vetoed by THIS PRESIDENT provided federal money to study embryonic stem cells derived ONLY from left over blastocysts at fertility clinics. Hundreds of thousands left over blastocysts (EMBRYOES) are thrown away each year as medical waste.
So, is it more about HOW they are destroyed than the fact that they are? Why is OK with you that these left-over blastocysts are thrown in the trash?
Fundie said:
Linda-
You assume that i am okay with invetro fertilization, or the funding of those lines of embryos, which i am not okay with. I think embyos i a petry dish are as bad as embryonic stem cell research.
You are right that i can not judge you on morale's, or on any other matter. I appreciate your desire to help those that are suffering with life threatening illnesses, it shows your true human nature to order the world to peace. However, I cannot allow our government to use my tax dollars to fund what i see as an immoral act, just as it can not fund my Church, because the government should only do what is in the common interest of all. If you want to help those in need, comfort a dieing person in the street like Mother Theresa did. We all will soon die, our only hope is that we die with the human dignity that we were concieved with.
You assume that i am okay with invetro fertilization, or the funding of those lines of embryos, which i am not okay with. I think embyos i a petry dish are as bad as embryonic stem cell research.
You are right that i can not judge you on morale's, or on any other matter. I appreciate your desire to help those that are suffering with life threatening illnesses, it shows your true human nature to order the world to peace. However, I cannot allow our government to use my tax dollars to fund what i see as an immoral act, just as it can not fund my Church, because the government should only do what is in the common interest of all. If you want to help those in need, comfort a dieing person in the street like Mother Theresa did. We all will soon die, our only hope is that we die with the human dignity that we were concieved with.
tracyaphillips said:
Nobody is changing the argument.
The world's leading bio-ethics experts agree that this is the only ethics concern....
for HUMAN life.
A group of cells that is unconscious, and will never grow to the point of consciuosness, are not human.
A group of cells that come directly from a human are not automatically protected as though they are a human life. They are not viable. Neither are all those embryos that go into the trash after a couple of minutes there.
If you wanna define the argument, then argue with yourself.
The world's leading bio-ethics experts agree that this is the only ethics concern....
for HUMAN life.
A group of cells that is unconscious, and will never grow to the point of consciuosness, are not human.
A group of cells that come directly from a human are not automatically protected as though they are a human life. They are not viable. Neither are all those embryos that go into the trash after a couple of minutes there.
If you wanna define the argument, then argue with yourself.
tracyaphillips said:
If you wanna help a dying person in need...
FUND STEM CELL RESEARCH.
Jesus loves medical research, and the people who do it.
FUND STEM CELL RESEARCH.
Jesus loves medical research, and the people who do it.
sooner red said:
You folks need to start keepin' up. ESCs are found in cord blood and stem cells are plentiful in embryonic fluid. No reason to kill embryos.
Now some scientists will tell you that they might not work as well. But they are invested in that ESC research and probably facing funding cuts if those alternatives work out. Conflict of interest?
Linda, ma'am, if we turn over our moral compass to scientists, we are in big big trouble.
Now some scientists will tell you that they might not work as well. But they are invested in that ESC research and probably facing funding cuts if those alternatives work out. Conflict of interest?
Linda, ma'am, if we turn over our moral compass to scientists, we are in big big trouble.
tracyaphillips said:
And I didn't mention anything about happiness.
Just doing the next right thing.
Saving lives with discarded tissues.
Just doing the next right thing.
Saving lives with discarded tissues.
Predestined said:
Tracy,
I believe you're right. God (or whatever term one chooses for the Creator(ess) or not...) gave humans the brains and the means to "discover" things and to help other humans with what is learned. If you don't think that science is a gift, there's a problem somewhere.
Linda,
I appreciate all you shared! Exellent! And thank you! Somewhere buried deep in this aging brain was what you said, but there was no way I was going to be able to dig it up and put it into words as eloquently as you did.
What Fundie may not understand is that most of us here are not pro-abortion. We are pro-choice and that means we believe that everyone should have the right to choose. I doubt that I would ever have an abortion (sure wouldn't need one now), but I also can't say that I never would. With my last daughter, I was given the option of having genetic testing because I was over the age of 35. I opted not to have it, knowing that I would deal with whatever problems COULD arise. Not everyone could. And in some instances, I might not be able to either.
I am not in favor of using abortion as a means of birth control. But it is NOT MY DECISION. If a woman seeks an abortion for whatever reason, I believe that is between her, her doctor, and her God. She must live with her decision, just as a woman who relinquishes her child for adoption must. Neither is a choice I would want to have to make.
I'll boil the abortion debate down to this one thing, and then I'm done discussing it. When you can claim a fetus as a deduction when you file your taxes, then you can claim it as a child.
I believe you're right. God (or whatever term one chooses for the Creator(ess) or not...) gave humans the brains and the means to "discover" things and to help other humans with what is learned. If you don't think that science is a gift, there's a problem somewhere.
Linda,
I appreciate all you shared! Exellent! And thank you! Somewhere buried deep in this aging brain was what you said, but there was no way I was going to be able to dig it up and put it into words as eloquently as you did.
What Fundie may not understand is that most of us here are not pro-abortion. We are pro-choice and that means we believe that everyone should have the right to choose. I doubt that I would ever have an abortion (sure wouldn't need one now), but I also can't say that I never would. With my last daughter, I was given the option of having genetic testing because I was over the age of 35. I opted not to have it, knowing that I would deal with whatever problems COULD arise. Not everyone could. And in some instances, I might not be able to either.
I am not in favor of using abortion as a means of birth control. But it is NOT MY DECISION. If a woman seeks an abortion for whatever reason, I believe that is between her, her doctor, and her God. She must live with her decision, just as a woman who relinquishes her child for adoption must. Neither is a choice I would want to have to make.
I'll boil the abortion debate down to this one thing, and then I'm done discussing it. When you can claim a fetus as a deduction when you file your taxes, then you can claim it as a child.
tracyaphillips said:
sooner, those cells don't KNOW they are from a human, do they?
Fundie, argue with sooner.
See ya later, sooner.
Fundie, argue with sooner.
See ya later, sooner.
FUndie said:
Science is a beautiful gift, from the creator(ess), but with all gifts they must be used appropriatly.
(I have always wanted to say this) If a woman (and a man for that matter) want to have the power to decide if and when to have a baby, it should be made much earlier than when something growing inside of her.
(God forbid in the case of rape, she should have the prayers of every soul on earth to live a sacrifical life similar to that of Christ.
Oh and lest i forget Jesus loves all, its whether you chose to return the favor.
(I have always wanted to say this) If a woman (and a man for that matter) want to have the power to decide if and when to have a baby, it should be made much earlier than when something growing inside of her.
(God forbid in the case of rape, she should have the prayers of every soul on earth to live a sacrifical life similar to that of Christ.
Oh and lest i forget Jesus loves all, its whether you chose to return the favor.
WSClark said:
Fundie and So' Red - ESC are discarded if they are not used, there are thousands of cells produced above and beyond the need for in vitro conception. Those ESC are no public property, they are owned by those that donated the egg and sperm. Why would anyone object if those cells are donated for research after the fact.
After I die, my body will be useless to me and my family. Now, I could be packed up in a box and covered in dirt in a big hole. I could also be placed on a large barbecue grill and burned to a crisp.
Instead of those options, I would like my body to be used for whatever scientific purpose applicable.
The scientific community has already informed me that they are terrified about the possibility of exploring my brain, but the rest will most likely be useable.
So, why send unused ESC to the dumpster - why not use them for the good of mankind?
Does the donation of the heart to a transplant candidate minimize the donor?
After I die, my body will be useless to me and my family. Now, I could be packed up in a box and covered in dirt in a big hole. I could also be placed on a large barbecue grill and burned to a crisp.
Instead of those options, I would like my body to be used for whatever scientific purpose applicable.
The scientific community has already informed me that they are terrified about the possibility of exploring my brain, but the rest will most likely be useable.
So, why send unused ESC to the dumpster - why not use them for the good of mankind?
Does the donation of the heart to a transplant candidate minimize the donor?
Danny said:
Linda,
Thank you for taking the time to explain some of the differences between these forms of stem cells. See, the one thing I don't get from my sister is "lay man" terms. Ugh. So, this means I have to go into a dictionary and teach myself biology.
I've still not answered your question on the how they are destroyed, and I'll be honest I don't have an answer for that. Which is why I said, I'm apt to be quiet on the issue, just don't really want to see more made for the specific purpose of ESC research.
LH,
Thank you for the article, it does seem that these came from bone marrow stem cells. Perhaps Linda would be better qualified to answer this though, does this not indicate coercing these into an organ from ASC? Again, at least I can admit, I'm not an expert on this matter. However, were these coerced from a cloning through an egg? The article didn't answer that question.
Tracy,
At what point does life begin? Using self-consciousness as an argument, then a child (new born) doesn't really have that either, yet we'll defend that childs right to life. Arguably consciousness doesn't begin to form until 1 or 2 years of life. I'd argue more from the: developmental stages of life. Sperm and the egg uniting then is the first developmental stage which continues through life until we die.
Fundie,
Linda raises the question that I've not been able to answer, why is it ok for the embryo to die one way but not another? It is generally why I've not debated the issues, as I think about that question.
Thank you for taking the time to explain some of the differences between these forms of stem cells. See, the one thing I don't get from my sister is "lay man" terms. Ugh. So, this means I have to go into a dictionary and teach myself biology.
I've still not answered your question on the how they are destroyed, and I'll be honest I don't have an answer for that. Which is why I said, I'm apt to be quiet on the issue, just don't really want to see more made for the specific purpose of ESC research.
LH,
Thank you for the article, it does seem that these came from bone marrow stem cells. Perhaps Linda would be better qualified to answer this though, does this not indicate coercing these into an organ from ASC? Again, at least I can admit, I'm not an expert on this matter. However, were these coerced from a cloning through an egg? The article didn't answer that question.
Tracy,
At what point does life begin? Using self-consciousness as an argument, then a child (new born) doesn't really have that either, yet we'll defend that childs right to life. Arguably consciousness doesn't begin to form until 1 or 2 years of life. I'd argue more from the: developmental stages of life. Sperm and the egg uniting then is the first developmental stage which continues through life until we die.
Fundie,
Linda raises the question that I've not been able to answer, why is it ok for the embryo to die one way but not another? It is generally why I've not debated the issues, as I think about that question.
FUndie said:
Just as it is okay for you to die naturally, and request that your oragns be donated, it is okay for an embryo to die of naturall causes, or those beyond human control. However I may not take your life and harvest your organs and explore your brain, legally or morally. Similarly if you believe that human life begins at conception then the same must follow. Natrual uncontrolable death, (however tragic) is in essence Gods will, however murder, or the removal of "tisue" should be illegal as it kills a human life.
As stated earlier, the arguement is when does life begin, if you believe that life begins at conception, invetro-fertilization, ESC research, abortion, and euthenaisa (i have no idea how to spell that word) are wrong. If you dont believe it begins at conception... watch out your next.
Side not, my wife and i are now pregnant with our first, and thier is absolutley no doubt in my mind that it was human life from that first moment, how beautiful is the gift of procreation.
As stated earlier, the arguement is when does life begin, if you believe that life begins at conception, invetro-fertilization, ESC research, abortion, and euthenaisa (i have no idea how to spell that word) are wrong. If you dont believe it begins at conception... watch out your next.
Side not, my wife and i are now pregnant with our first, and thier is absolutley no doubt in my mind that it was human life from that first moment, how beautiful is the gift of procreation.
TRACY said:
"Arguably consciousness doesn't begin to form until 1 or 2 years of life."
Now I know I'm done here.
That's just a completely silly thing to say.
Here, here's a simple test.
Make a loud noise near a one year old baby.
It reacts, it cries.
Now do the same very close to a blastocyst.
What's it do?
Nothing, it's a blastocyst.
Now I know I'm done here.
That's just a completely silly thing to say.
Here, here's a simple test.
Make a loud noise near a one year old baby.
It reacts, it cries.
Now do the same very close to a blastocyst.
What's it do?
Nothing, it's a blastocyst.
WSClark said:
Folks, I hate to be overly graphic, but if ESC are living human beings, what are sperm cells? If sperm are the first half of the equation, then masturbation should be illegal, according to the opposition logic.
If using ESC for medical research is a sin, then 99% of the American male populous is also guilty of genocide.
The other 1% just has not confessed yet.
If using ESC for medical research is a sin, then 99% of the American male populous is also guilty of genocide.
The other 1% just has not confessed yet.
Predestined said:
Fundie,
Congratulations on your upcoming baby. May your child bring you years of joy. Just watch out for the times that don't. ;)
You have every right to believe as you do, as do I.
Congratulations on your upcoming baby. May your child bring you years of joy. Just watch out for the times that don't. ;)
You have every right to believe as you do, as do I.
TRACY said:
Yes, congrads.
Children are wonderful......with mustard! HA!
Just kidden'.
I'm not goana argue more ESC stuff.
If you don't like ESC research, don't do it.
Lobby against it, whatever.
You'll be no less of a caveman in my eyes.
Children are wonderful......with mustard! HA!
Just kidden'.
I'm not goana argue more ESC stuff.
If you don't like ESC research, don't do it.
Lobby against it, whatever.
You'll be no less of a caveman in my eyes.
FUndie said:
Tracy,
I will be glad to oblidge, If being a cave man makes me right then that is what i will be.
All-
I hope to make more appearences on the WV, i hope you don't hold my religious views against me.
Maybe some of you more seasoned vets can give me hints on child rearing.
I will be glad to oblidge, If being a cave man makes me right then that is what i will be.
All-
I hope to make more appearences on the WV, i hope you don't hold my religious views against me.
Maybe some of you more seasoned vets can give me hints on child rearing.
WSClark said:
FUndie - I hope that the capitalization was intentional on your part - I am not trying to make fun of you by copying your nic.....
Anyway, we are not going to "make fun" of your religion. Your personal religious beliefs are just that - yours. You need to understand, however, that most do not feel that personal religious beliefs should not dictate public policy.
In other words, your religion should not be our law.
That having been said, welcome to WV Blog. I have read your posts and you obviously have given them a lot of thought. I have no problem with an opposition view and I am sure that most of us here would agree.
As for child rearing - I have raised three children - my best advise is to run like Hell.
(double wink!)
Anyway, we are not going to "make fun" of your religion. Your personal religious beliefs are just that - yours. You need to understand, however, that most do not feel that personal religious beliefs should not dictate public policy.
In other words, your religion should not be our law.
That having been said, welcome to WV Blog. I have read your posts and you obviously have given them a lot of thought. I have no problem with an opposition view and I am sure that most of us here would agree.
As for child rearing - I have raised three children - my best advise is to run like Hell.
(double wink!)
lindainks55 said:
I will never be baited into discussing any subject with people whose minds are made up. I think everyone has already made up their minds. I KNOW I have! Nothing more boring than talking to hear yourself talk. Except maybe listening to someone talk to hear themselves talk.
Masturbation! Now that's a good subject!
Masturbation! Now that's a good subject!
FUndie said:
I am here because i think opposing views are necesary to democracy, and that maybe, just maybe, if i am completly honest with some of you guys we may be able to find some common ground that was previously undiscovered. Some of the members of "wingnut central" would impead that and i might find my self siding with them because i think that they are on my side, rather than truely facing the issue and thinking it out. Sure it may seem like a will get ganged up on, however this isnt about winning, it is about growing. What do i have to lose? my reputaion you dont even know who i am. Plus i am very proud (if its not painfully obvious already) of my Catholic hearitage, i think alot of times it doesnt get fair play in the news or on blogs. If i can speak even the slightest bit to the truth and beauty of the faith then i will have accomplished alot. I know i will but heads with alot of you quite often, but i am atleast open minded which is more than what i can say about some on the WE. (I know i dont seem very open minded today) but there are only a few things that i am adimate about, one of those is the Dignity, value and beauty of human life from dust to dust.
longhorn said:
Why here fundie? Why not somewhere else?
Are you another nic for paul or danny? This is a new day of honesty now, so answer truthfully. Jesus doesnt like lying.
Are you another nic for paul or danny? This is a new day of honesty now, so answer truthfully. Jesus doesnt like lying.
longhorn said:
If you want to minister to the unwashed and uncatholic, why are you here? Why not engage in ministry instead of coming to this particular blog? How did you find this blog?
lindainks55 said:
I am laughing so hard I might start typing in all lower case or spelling accurately or telling you the blogs and the news don't have enough info about when life begins... The senteence below just really struck all my funny bones all at once:
fundie posted: "but i am atleast open minded which is more than what i can say about some on the WE."
I think there are many whose mind was soooo open their brains fell out.
fundie posted: "but i am atleast open minded which is more than what i can say about some on the WE."
I think there are many whose mind was soooo open their brains fell out.
longhorn said:
hmmmm, so no answer must be preferable to a truthful answer? If you cant tell the truth, dont say anything at all?
WSClark said:
Grrl, did ya' check out the Top Ten on DU today? I just love #5................
Hilarious.
..... and just think, John McCain is running near the front for the Republican nomination in 2008 - and WHO wants this man to be our next President?
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/top10/28...
Hilarious.
..... and just think, John McCain is running near the front for the Republican nomination in 2008 - and WHO wants this man to be our next President?
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/top10/28...
longhorn said:
Exactly HOW MANY operation rescue folks does it take to infiltrate a little bitty blog like this? And how many folks from "michigan"?
lindainks55 said:
Well, I AM SORRY friends. I should have kept my big mouth shut. I thought I was answering a question Dubya asked. WOW!
Fundie said:
So many question, so little time. No i am not an alt nic. I never have posted any where before. I found this blog by reading the WE, they linked here, (so the longtime reader thing was more of a spoof on the radio talkshow thing) so i came and i read, and i posted. For any other future questions, i am not paid to post, i am only 22 and have alot to learn of life. You usually dont learn from those that think just like you, they dont have much to give.
Linda,
I did not come to fight a personall vendeta, so if you would like to attack my style go ahead, but i would like to stick to the topics.
Oh... i didn't realize there was an application process to get on this blog, Dubbya, when did that start.
Linda,
I did not come to fight a personall vendeta, so if you would like to attack my style go ahead, but i would like to stick to the topics.
Oh... i didn't realize there was an application process to get on this blog, Dubbya, when did that start.
.morg said:
Just curious Fundie were you raised Catholic, attended a Catholic school? What do you think of the war? Islam?other Christan religons?
TRACY said:
FUndie..... if you just wanna be right, okay.
You're right.
And the caveman thing is a joke...you know, geico.
Howdy LH, WSC and crew.
You're right.
And the caveman thing is a joke...you know, geico.
Howdy LH, WSC and crew.
Predestined said:
Since it seems we're going to move on to religion, I thought this was interesting.
From the CIA Factbook:
"Religions: Christians 33.03% (of which Roman Catholics 17.33%, Protestants 5.8%, Orthodox 3.42%, Anglicans 1.23%), Muslims 20.12%, Hindus 13.34%, Buddhists 5.89%, Sikhs 0.39%, Jews 0.23%, other religions 12.61%, non-religious 12.03%, atheists 2.36% (2004 est.)"
I was reading something somewhere the other day about a poll of college students (at least I think it was college students) and it was discovered that 15% of them claimed to be atheist. That would mean that, in the future, that percentage may climb a little. Just a thought, really. But I did wonder why the number was increasing. Have young people given up on religion, and if so, why?
From the CIA Factbook:
"Religions: Christians 33.03% (of which Roman Catholics 17.33%, Protestants 5.8%, Orthodox 3.42%, Anglicans 1.23%), Muslims 20.12%, Hindus 13.34%, Buddhists 5.89%, Sikhs 0.39%, Jews 0.23%, other religions 12.61%, non-religious 12.03%, atheists 2.36% (2004 est.)"
I was reading something somewhere the other day about a poll of college students (at least I think it was college students) and it was discovered that 15% of them claimed to be atheist. That would mean that, in the future, that percentage may climb a little. Just a thought, really. But I did wonder why the number was increasing. Have young people given up on religion, and if so, why?
Fundie said:
Tracy,
I assumed it was a reference to those brilliant comercials, I just had to snap back, and that was the most clever thing i could think of...until now...okay i've got nothing.
I assumed it was a reference to those brilliant comercials, I just had to snap back, and that was the most clever thing i could think of...until now...okay i've got nothing.
longhorn said:
BIll Maher said it on Friday that 19% are athiest or agnostic, and that is about the same number that claim to be republican. So the counter balance each other which, Bill said, means we will shortly be living in a very different country.
Folks under thirty approve of gay marriage, approve of environmental protections, and disapprove of wars of choice. They generally support public funding of public education, and they overwhelmingly APPROVE of a woman's right to choice.
Oh yea, and they believe pot and most other drugs should be legalized and cig smoking in public places should be banned.
Sounds like a liberal agenda to me, and I read that identification with the republican party is at a FIFTY year low.
I think fundie and sooner red and solly and danny must be looking at the future with some dread. I look at it with glee, and cant wait to see the wheel turn and the theocrats are on the BOTTOM of the wheel when it stops turning.
Waiting for the squeals...
Folks under thirty approve of gay marriage, approve of environmental protections, and disapprove of wars of choice. They generally support public funding of public education, and they overwhelmingly APPROVE of a woman's right to choice.
Oh yea, and they believe pot and most other drugs should be legalized and cig smoking in public places should be banned.
Sounds like a liberal agenda to me, and I read that identification with the republican party is at a FIFTY year low.
I think fundie and sooner red and solly and danny must be looking at the future with some dread. I look at it with glee, and cant wait to see the wheel turn and the theocrats are on the BOTTOM of the wheel when it stops turning.
Waiting for the squeals...
Predestined said:
.morg, 17% of college students or the world? I may easily have seen or heard the college stats incorrectly. My short term memory is pitiful and getting worse by the day. *grin*
.morg said:
Pre I just looked on the net. Googled
"per cent atheists". Interesting stuff. Memory I just forgot how to spell atheists.
"per cent atheists". Interesting stuff. Memory I just forgot how to spell atheists.
Predestined said:
Thanks for the brain refresher, LH. I'm sure that's where I heard it too. But I've slept since then, so...
I just wish we would become the real country of freedom, able to respect the rights and ideas of others without being expected to buy into them. A country where the Haves and Have Mores take a good look around and realize that there are those just don't have, and the H&HM's would feel the need to help.
I don't aspire to be wealthy, I'd just like to have a place of my own and a car that doesn't break down every two or three months. LOL
I just wish we would become the real country of freedom, able to respect the rights and ideas of others without being expected to buy into them. A country where the Haves and Have Mores take a good look around and realize that there are those just don't have, and the H&HM's would feel the need to help.
I don't aspire to be wealthy, I'd just like to have a place of my own and a car that doesn't break down every two or three months. LOL
longhorn said:
Me too Pre. Well, all that AND a tractor in my case. hehehe. One that is preferably not stolen...
Danny said:
LH,
I've only posted under Danny ever. As I've said, at least one person here can presumably vouch for that. Further, because I stated, I'm against ESC, by that meaning against the making of embryos specifically for ESC research, that assumes to identify me with some party?
I'm neither liberal, nor conservative. However, I am liberal or conservative on issues. I think each issue through by reading what is presented. I keep an open mind, so if someone here provides evidence that contradicts something, then guess what I'm quite willing to change my mind. It is why I ask for information.
It was said best, people have made up their minds, in many cases this probably true. Further, I don't look the future with dread. There are a fair number of liberal ideas I think are great, as there are a fair number of conservative ideas I'm for.
Tracy,
"Arguably consciousness doesn't begin to form until 1 or 2 years of life."
Now I know I'm done here.
That's just a completely silly thing to say.
I'll explain why I said that, much of a childs early reactions are instinctual. My second degree which was laden in psychology, also seems to back this up.
10a. Child-psychology often suffers from the same mistake that is made in animal psychology: namely, that the observations aren't interpreted objectively, but are filled out with subjective reflections. Thus, the earliest ideational combinations, which are in reality purely associative, are regarded as acts of logical reflection, and the earliest mimetic expressive movements, as, for example, those of a new-born child due to taste-stimuli, are looked upon as reactions to feelings, while they are obviously at first nothing but connate reflexes which may, indeed, be accompanied by obscure concomitant feelings, but even these can not be demonstrated with certainty. The ordinary view as to the development of volition and of speech, labors under a like misconception. Generally there is a tendency to consider the child's language, because of its peculiarities, as a creation of his own. Closer observation, however, shows that it is created by those about him, though in doing this they use the sounds that the child himself produces, and conform as far as possible to big stage of consciousness. Thus it comes that some of the very detailed and praise-worthy accounts of the mental development of the child in modern literature can serve only as sources for finding objective facts. Because they stand on the basis of a reflective popular psychology, their psychological deductions require correction along the lines marked out above.
In other words, it isn't clear that young children possess "conscious" thought. But rather react to stimuli.
I've only posted under Danny ever. As I've said, at least one person here can presumably vouch for that. Further, because I stated, I'm against ESC, by that meaning against the making of embryos specifically for ESC research, that assumes to identify me with some party?
I'm neither liberal, nor conservative. However, I am liberal or conservative on issues. I think each issue through by reading what is presented. I keep an open mind, so if someone here provides evidence that contradicts something, then guess what I'm quite willing to change my mind. It is why I ask for information.
It was said best, people have made up their minds, in many cases this probably true. Further, I don't look the future with dread. There are a fair number of liberal ideas I think are great, as there are a fair number of conservative ideas I'm for.
Tracy,
"Arguably consciousness doesn't begin to form until 1 or 2 years of life."
Now I know I'm done here.
That's just a completely silly thing to say.
I'll explain why I said that, much of a childs early reactions are instinctual. My second degree which was laden in psychology, also seems to back this up.
10a. Child-psychology often suffers from the same mistake that is made in animal psychology: namely, that the observations aren't interpreted objectively, but are filled out with subjective reflections. Thus, the earliest ideational combinations, which are in reality purely associative, are regarded as acts of logical reflection, and the earliest mimetic expressive movements, as, for example, those of a new-born child due to taste-stimuli, are looked upon as reactions to feelings, while they are obviously at first nothing but connate reflexes which may, indeed, be accompanied by obscure concomitant feelings, but even these can not be demonstrated with certainty. The ordinary view as to the development of volition and of speech, labors under a like misconception. Generally there is a tendency to consider the child's language, because of its peculiarities, as a creation of his own. Closer observation, however, shows that it is created by those about him, though in doing this they use the sounds that the child himself produces, and conform as far as possible to big stage of consciousness. Thus it comes that some of the very detailed and praise-worthy accounts of the mental development of the child in modern literature can serve only as sources for finding objective facts. Because they stand on the basis of a reflective popular psychology, their psychological deductions require correction along the lines marked out above.
In other words, it isn't clear that young children possess "conscious" thought. But rather react to stimuli.
Danny said:
Linda,
No need to apologize to me! Contrary to some, I appreciate ALL information. It helps me to make my decision better, or more informed.
No need to apologize to me! Contrary to some, I appreciate ALL information. It helps me to make my decision better, or more informed.
Predestined said:
A quick question due to lack of memory.
Is Passover celebrated by Christians?
I noticed a sign at Central Christian Church as I drove by the other day that mentioned a Passover Dinner to be held tonight (I think). I know this is a major Jewish holiday, and I know the history of it, but I wasn't aware that Christians also celebrated it.
Clue me in, guys. I've forgotten far more than I'll ever remember.
Is Passover celebrated by Christians?
I noticed a sign at Central Christian Church as I drove by the other day that mentioned a Passover Dinner to be held tonight (I think). I know this is a major Jewish holiday, and I know the history of it, but I wasn't aware that Christians also celebrated it.
Clue me in, guys. I've forgotten far more than I'll ever remember.
.morg said:
If anybody is interested here's the number breakdown
Christianity: 2 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
Buddhism: 360 million
Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
primal-indigenous: 150 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 14 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 6 million
Jainism: 4 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 3 million
Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
Scientology: 600 thousand
Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand
Source
Christianity: 2 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
Buddhism: 360 million
Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
primal-indigenous: 150 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 14 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 6 million
Jainism: 4 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 3 million
Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
Scientology: 600 thousand
Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand
Source
Vaughn Tolle said:
FWIW department; Passover was, in fact, celebrated by the early Church (as most of those folks were Jewish); from my Judaism class in college, the "modern" Church has not chosen to celebrate it, preferring to concentrate, as one might expect, on Easter. I believe there are some Christians who choose to celebrate Passover, but there's not many who do in the observance of the formal liturgy of the denomination. Now that I'm out on my limb, be courteous with the sawing.
Julie said:
Pre-
Honoring Passover as part of the Christian faith is more the exception than the rule. Some individual churches may offer Passover dinners or lectures on what the Passover means but it isn't a 'required' celebration. Easter just happens to (usually) fall close to Passover.
Honoring Passover as part of the Christian faith is more the exception than the rule. Some individual churches may offer Passover dinners or lectures on what the Passover means but it isn't a 'required' celebration. Easter just happens to (usually) fall close to Passover.
Predestined said:
Danny,
At this point, I don't know that I disagree with you about the "making" of embryos for ESC research. As it is, there are more than enough out there for that. It would seem that the making of them for that specific purpose could lead to some bad stuff. But 100 years from now, people may see it differently.
Let's keep in mind that even Nancy Reagan changed her mind about ESC after Ronnie contracted Alzheimer's. Sometimes it takes having it hit close to home for some to realize what it could mean where life is concerned.
At this point, I don't know that I disagree with you about the "making" of embryos for ESC research. As it is, there are more than enough out there for that. It would seem that the making of them for that specific purpose could lead to some bad stuff. But 100 years from now, people may see it differently.
Let's keep in mind that even Nancy Reagan changed her mind about ESC after Ronnie contracted Alzheimer's. Sometimes it takes having it hit close to home for some to realize what it could mean where life is concerned.
TRACY said:
Okie dokie danny. I got yer point. Well said.
If that is unclear, then why would anybody have a problem sacrificing a blostocyst?
Or even some frozen embryos that will soon be discarded.
The whole stem cell debate is just as trumped up and phony as saving the poor brain dead woman.
It's a political tool used to rally the fundies.
Brownback and the 'snowflakes' has got to be the worst political show since then.
If that is unclear, then why would anybody have a problem sacrificing a blostocyst?
Or even some frozen embryos that will soon be discarded.
The whole stem cell debate is just as trumped up and phony as saving the poor brain dead woman.
It's a political tool used to rally the fundies.
Brownback and the 'snowflakes' has got to be the worst political show since then.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Julie, again from memory; the reason that Passover and Easter fall close to each other has something to do with the way the date for Easter is ascertained by the Church, and the way Passover falls in the Jewish calendar; these dates do roughly coincide annually (most of the time).
Danny said:
Pre,
I agree, and who knows, if someone presents information to me that changes my mind, guess what I'll happily defend what I'm currently against.
Tracy,
That is where the problem lies, is life defined as consciousness or developmental stages? It is why I define life as moments of development. As such, then the beginning of development of a new life is the moment the sperm and egg unite.
I agree, and who knows, if someone presents information to me that changes my mind, guess what I'll happily defend what I'm currently against.
Tracy,
That is where the problem lies, is life defined as consciousness or developmental stages? It is why I define life as moments of development. As such, then the beginning of development of a new life is the moment the sperm and egg unite.
WSClark said:
Snowflake babies........ How do snowflake babies get implanted in a woman? Do the "parents" of the 'flake sell them to their future parents? Are they donated like dimes in a Red Kettle? Does someone sneak in during the darkest hour before dawn and steal them?
If snowflake cells can be bought, donated or stolen, then why can't the same be done for ESC for medical research?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm......................???????????????
If snowflake cells can be bought, donated or stolen, then why can't the same be done for ESC for medical research?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm......................???????????????
TRACY said:
fundie and Danny, just for discussion sake,
I'm a christian too.
I beleive in the nicene creed of 325 A.D.
That should be the only requirement for 'membership'.
Those are the things you must believe, everything else is open for discussion.
Here's my favorite cutnpaste about religion.
A Challenge
I challenge the thinkers of the world to drop their sectarianism, their nationalism, and their partisanships, and in the spirit of brotherhood to work in their particular nation, regarding it as integral part of a great federation of nations, - a federation that now exists on the inner side, but waits for the activity of the world thinkers to bring it to materialization on the outer side.
I charge them to work in the cause of religion, and in the field of that particular religion in which they, by an accident of birth or choice, are interested, regarding each religion as part of the great world religion. They must look upon the activities of their group, society or organization, as demanding their help, just in so far, as the principles on which they are founded, and the techniques which they employ, serve the general good, and develop the realization of Brotherhood.
I ask you to drop your antagonisms and your antipathies, your hatreds and your racial differences, and to attempt to think in terms of the one family, the one life, and the one humanity.
I would remind you that hatred and separateness have brought humanity to the present condition.
I would add to that reminder, however, the fact that there is in the world today a large enough number of liberated men, to produce a change in the attitudes of mankind and in public opinion, if they measure up by an act of the will, to what they know and believe.
I challenge you also to make sacrifices; to give yourself and your time, and your money, and your interest, to carry these ideas to those around you, in your own environment, and to the group in which you find yourself, thus awakening your associates. I call you to a united effort to inculcate anew the ideas of brotherhood and of unity. I ask you to recognize your fellow workers in all the groups and to strengthen their hands. I ask you to seal your lips to words of hatred and of criticism, and to talk in terms of brotherhood and of group relationships. I beg of you to see to it that every day is for you a new day, in which you face new opportunity. Lose sight of your own affairs, your petty sorrows, worries and suspicions, in the urgency of the task to be done, and spread the cult of unity, of love and of harmlessness.
I also ask you to sever connection with all groups which are seeking to destroy and to attack, no matter how sincere their motive. Range yourself on the side of the workers for constructive ends, who are fighting no other groups or organizations, and who have eliminated the world "anti" out of their vocabulary. Stand on the side of those who are silently and steadily building for the new order - an order which is founded on love, which builds under the impulse of brotherhood, and which possesses a realization of brotherhood, which is based on the knowledge that we are, each and all, no matter what our race, the children of the One Father, and who have come to the realization that the old ways of working must go, and the newer methods must be given a chance.
If you cannot yourself teach or preach or write, give of your thought and of your money, so that others can. Give of your hours and minutes of leisure, so as to set others free to serve the Plan; give of your money, so that the work of those associated with the new group of “world servers” may go forward with rapidity. Much time you waste on non-essentials. Many of you give little or nothing of time. The same is the case with money. Give as never before, and so make the physical aspects of the work possible. Some give of their very need, and the power they thereby release is great. Those on the inner side are grateful for the giving by those who can give only at great personal cost. Others give of what they can spare, and only when it needs no sacrifice to give. Let that condition also end, and give to the limit, with justice and understanding, so that the age of love and light may be more rapidly ushered in. I care not where or to whom you give, only that you give, - little if you have but little of time and money, much if you have much. Work and give, love and think and aid those groups who are building and not destroying, loving and not attacking, lifting and not tearing down.
I challenge you above all to a deeper life, and I implore you for the sake of your fellow men to strengthen your contact with your own soul, so that you will have done your share in making revelation possible; so that you will have served your part in bringing in the light, and will therefore be in a position to take advantage of that new light and new information, and so be better able to point the way and clear the path for the bewildered seeker at that time. Those who are not ready for the coming events, will be blinded by the emerging light, and bewildered by the revealing wonder; they will be swept by the living breath of God, and it is to you that we look to fit them for the event.
I'm a christian too.
I beleive in the nicene creed of 325 A.D.
That should be the only requirement for 'membership'.
Those are the things you must believe, everything else is open for discussion.
Here's my favorite cutnpaste about religion.
A Challenge
I challenge the thinkers of the world to drop their sectarianism, their nationalism, and their partisanships, and in the spirit of brotherhood to work in their particular nation, regarding it as integral part of a great federation of nations, - a federation that now exists on the inner side, but waits for the activity of the world thinkers to bring it to materialization on the outer side.
I charge them to work in the cause of religion, and in the field of that particular religion in which they, by an accident of birth or choice, are interested, regarding each religion as part of the great world religion. They must look upon the activities of their group, society or organization, as demanding their help, just in so far, as the principles on which they are founded, and the techniques which they employ, serve the general good, and develop the realization of Brotherhood.
I ask you to drop your antagonisms and your antipathies, your hatreds and your racial differences, and to attempt to think in terms of the one family, the one life, and the one humanity.
I would remind you that hatred and separateness have brought humanity to the present condition.
I would add to that reminder, however, the fact that there is in the world today a large enough number of liberated men, to produce a change in the attitudes of mankind and in public opinion, if they measure up by an act of the will, to what they know and believe.
I challenge you also to make sacrifices; to give yourself and your time, and your money, and your interest, to carry these ideas to those around you, in your own environment, and to the group in which you find yourself, thus awakening your associates. I call you to a united effort to inculcate anew the ideas of brotherhood and of unity. I ask you to recognize your fellow workers in all the groups and to strengthen their hands. I ask you to seal your lips to words of hatred and of criticism, and to talk in terms of brotherhood and of group relationships. I beg of you to see to it that every day is for you a new day, in which you face new opportunity. Lose sight of your own affairs, your petty sorrows, worries and suspicions, in the urgency of the task to be done, and spread the cult of unity, of love and of harmlessness.
I also ask you to sever connection with all groups which are seeking to destroy and to attack, no matter how sincere their motive. Range yourself on the side of the workers for constructive ends, who are fighting no other groups or organizations, and who have eliminated the world "anti" out of their vocabulary. Stand on the side of those who are silently and steadily building for the new order - an order which is founded on love, which builds under the impulse of brotherhood, and which possesses a realization of brotherhood, which is based on the knowledge that we are, each and all, no matter what our race, the children of the One Father, and who have come to the realization that the old ways of working must go, and the newer methods must be given a chance.
If you cannot yourself teach or preach or write, give of your thought and of your money, so that others can. Give of your hours and minutes of leisure, so as to set others free to serve the Plan; give of your money, so that the work of those associated with the new group of “world servers” may go forward with rapidity. Much time you waste on non-essentials. Many of you give little or nothing of time. The same is the case with money. Give as never before, and so make the physical aspects of the work possible. Some give of their very need, and the power they thereby release is great. Those on the inner side are grateful for the giving by those who can give only at great personal cost. Others give of what they can spare, and only when it needs no sacrifice to give. Let that condition also end, and give to the limit, with justice and understanding, so that the age of love and light may be more rapidly ushered in. I care not where or to whom you give, only that you give, - little if you have but little of time and money, much if you have much. Work and give, love and think and aid those groups who are building and not destroying, loving and not attacking, lifting and not tearing down.
I challenge you above all to a deeper life, and I implore you for the sake of your fellow men to strengthen your contact with your own soul, so that you will have done your share in making revelation possible; so that you will have served your part in bringing in the light, and will therefore be in a position to take advantage of that new light and new information, and so be better able to point the way and clear the path for the bewildered seeker at that time. Those who are not ready for the coming events, will be blinded by the emerging light, and bewildered by the revealing wonder; they will be swept by the living breath of God, and it is to you that we look to fit them for the event.
Fundie said:
Jesus was celebrating the Passover Meal with the disciples the night prior to his death, that is why the Christian Church mimics the Jewish Faith. Easter is celbrated in light of Passover, as Christ was the Sacrifical Lamb. And as you may recall from the 6 hour movie "the Ten Commandments" the lambs blood on the door frames saved the first born of the Jews.
sooner red said:
Pre, I don't know if college kids are any more agnostic than they've ever been, but they could be in this crazy day and age. What with Hollywood and those liberal media folks doin' their best to undermine traditional values, it would be a wonder if they weren't.
But I do know this; kids are always more liberal than grown ups. That's why you really can't look at kids' values today and say that; Whoopee!, a new generation of liberals are on their way. That Churchill fella had a pretty good quote on that. You probably know which one I'm talking about. I believe most of it. But I do think that you can still have a brain if you are 40 and still a liberal. But you are have misplaced it; no offense intended. (humor)
Thanks for not jumpin' all over me before. I can see you guys are mostly liberals. I usually say what I believe and don't sugar coat it.
But I do know this; kids are always more liberal than grown ups. That's why you really can't look at kids' values today and say that; Whoopee!, a new generation of liberals are on their way. That Churchill fella had a pretty good quote on that. You probably know which one I'm talking about. I believe most of it. But I do think that you can still have a brain if you are 40 and still a liberal. But you are have misplaced it; no offense intended. (humor)
Thanks for not jumpin' all over me before. I can see you guys are mostly liberals. I usually say what I believe and don't sugar coat it.
Danny said:
Tracy,
I hate nobody for differing views. I enjoy differing views because it allows me to reflect on issues. So I think no less of anybody who has differing views. I hope that everything I've ever typed has shown that. If not, I'll again apologize. I've had my mind changed on issues I thought that I would never change on.
Do I dislike liberals? No. Do I dislike conservatives? No again. All I ever want is information so that way I can make a decision about an idea or a concept. For those that want to know, I obtained two different degrees: Computer Science and Criminal Justice with emphasis on: robotic vision, physics(minored), and math(minored) for CS, and psychology for CJ. Do I consider myself any better than anybody else? No.
So Tracy, I'll accept your challenge, I think. I may have to read it again. ;)
I hate nobody for differing views. I enjoy differing views because it allows me to reflect on issues. So I think no less of anybody who has differing views. I hope that everything I've ever typed has shown that. If not, I'll again apologize. I've had my mind changed on issues I thought that I would never change on.
Do I dislike liberals? No. Do I dislike conservatives? No again. All I ever want is information so that way I can make a decision about an idea or a concept. For those that want to know, I obtained two different degrees: Computer Science and Criminal Justice with emphasis on: robotic vision, physics(minored), and math(minored) for CS, and psychology for CJ. Do I consider myself any better than anybody else? No.
So Tracy, I'll accept your challenge, I think. I may have to read it again. ;)
TRACY said:
Danny, no need to apologize.
I never got the feeling that we are having anything but friendly banter.
fundie, I'm sure you're familiar with the creed.
That is the core of our beliefs.
Going into lengthy discussions about gays, abortion, and other 'hot button' issues, is IMHO, as stated above, much time wasted on 'non-essentials'.
I never got the feeling that we are having anything but friendly banter.
fundie, I'm sure you're familiar with the creed.
That is the core of our beliefs.
Going into lengthy discussions about gays, abortion, and other 'hot button' issues, is IMHO, as stated above, much time wasted on 'non-essentials'.
WSClark said:
"What with Hollywood and those liberal media folks doin' their best to undermine traditional values, it would be a wonder if they weren't."
I would beg to differ with your opinion and analysis, So'Red. It would be my opinion that kids in the late Sixties and early Seventies were much more liberal than kids today.
The youth of American may be more accepting today - less racism and homophobia - but over all, I would say that they are more conservative - at least until the last year or so when GWB turned conservative into an insult.
As for liberal media - who? O'Reilly? Sean O'Limbaugh? Savage? Coulter? Will? Fox News? CNN?
For every liberal news person you can name, I can name five conservatives.
...... and Hollywood undermining traditional values? Holloywood is a MIRROR, not a pathfinder. The film and music industries only REFLECT society - they do not determine the values of society.
I would beg to differ with your opinion and analysis, So'Red. It would be my opinion that kids in the late Sixties and early Seventies were much more liberal than kids today.
The youth of American may be more accepting today - less racism and homophobia - but over all, I would say that they are more conservative - at least until the last year or so when GWB turned conservative into an insult.
As for liberal media - who? O'Reilly? Sean O'Limbaugh? Savage? Coulter? Will? Fox News? CNN?
For every liberal news person you can name, I can name five conservatives.
...... and Hollywood undermining traditional values? Holloywood is a MIRROR, not a pathfinder. The film and music industries only REFLECT society - they do not determine the values of society.
Danny said:
WS,
I'm apt to agree with you partially there. I think entertainment is a reflection of an interpretation by its maker. Not entirely a reflection of society as a whole, perhaps a reflection on a dirty mirror? One kind of sees the reflection and probably enough so to see what is on the otherside, but distorted some how still.
I do agree, there are certainly some bias in media to the conservative side. Which in turn means, go out and find the information myself, that isn't biased... which is impossible, so to balance, I have to read both sides of the issue.
I'm apt to agree with you partially there. I think entertainment is a reflection of an interpretation by its maker. Not entirely a reflection of society as a whole, perhaps a reflection on a dirty mirror? One kind of sees the reflection and probably enough so to see what is on the otherside, but distorted some how still.
I do agree, there are certainly some bias in media to the conservative side. Which in turn means, go out and find the information myself, that isn't biased... which is impossible, so to balance, I have to read both sides of the issue.
Fundie said:
Tracy, I agree that we all can do alot more to make this world a better place. All of these hot button issues are not what needs to be done. Helping the poor, feeding the hungry. Spreading love is at the root cause of solving most (if not all the worlds problems). It should be the mission of all to help one another, its a matter of taking off your blinders and seeing the person next to you as a real person.
Also, the minimum for being christian is to be baptized, and believe in the creed.
Also, the minimum for being christian is to be baptized, and believe in the creed.
Predestined said:
The date for Easter is chosen by the stars, so to speak. *grin*
Easter is always the first Sunday after the first full moon following the Spring Equinox. The Spring Equinox (and Fall Equinox) is determined by the alignment of the Sun and the Earth.
(wikipedia)
The equinox happens when the Sun is at one of two opposite points on the celestial sphere where the celestial equator and ecliptic intersect. In a wider sense, the equinoxes are the two days each year when the center of the Sun spends an equal amount of time above and below the horizon at every location on Earth. The word equinox derives from the Latin words aequus (equal) and nox (night).
Easter is always the first Sunday after the first full moon following the Spring Equinox. The Spring Equinox (and Fall Equinox) is determined by the alignment of the Sun and the Earth.
(wikipedia)
The equinox happens when the Sun is at one of two opposite points on the celestial sphere where the celestial equator and ecliptic intersect. In a wider sense, the equinoxes are the two days each year when the center of the Sun spends an equal amount of time above and below the horizon at every location on Earth. The word equinox derives from the Latin words aequus (equal) and nox (night).
Predestined said:
Thank you to everyone who explained Passover to me. I'm sure I knew it, but it isn't something I've given much thought to.
Fundie,
I don't remember the original Passover in the movie. My knowledge (though fragmented) is from Leon Uris's EXODUS. The book, not the movie. :)
Fundie,
I don't remember the original Passover in the movie. My knowledge (though fragmented) is from Leon Uris's EXODUS. The book, not the movie. :)
lindainks55 said:
I've always been ABnormal I guess.
At twenty I was much more conservative than I am today. I was pretty sure of everything and positive my way of looking at things was the ONLY way. I was too straight laced, too careful, judgmental, worried. There was no straight line I didn't walk.
Today I am more compassionate, have a great deal more empathy, and am more generous, less selfish than I was at twenty. I am unlikely to think my way is what anyone else should follow because it's better if they find their own path.
I did the Churchill thing backwards. Sure glad I did. I'm having a lot more fun being a liberal with heart. I'm much less concerned about brains than I once was. I have enough to come in outta the cold, and enough that allowed me to raise children who are independent, productive adults today. I'm enjoying retirement and the grandkids. My husband likes me. My dog likes me. Everything is cool.
AND even tho I am liberal to the core I am much more financially conservative than President Bush and his bunch!
At twenty I was much more conservative than I am today. I was pretty sure of everything and positive my way of looking at things was the ONLY way. I was too straight laced, too careful, judgmental, worried. There was no straight line I didn't walk.
Today I am more compassionate, have a great deal more empathy, and am more generous, less selfish than I was at twenty. I am unlikely to think my way is what anyone else should follow because it's better if they find their own path.
I did the Churchill thing backwards. Sure glad I did. I'm having a lot more fun being a liberal with heart. I'm much less concerned about brains than I once was. I have enough to come in outta the cold, and enough that allowed me to raise children who are independent, productive adults today. I'm enjoying retirement and the grandkids. My husband likes me. My dog likes me. Everything is cool.
AND even tho I am liberal to the core I am much more financially conservative than President Bush and his bunch!
sooner red said:
"The film and music industries only REFLECT society - they do not determine the values of society."
WS, that's the Hollywood and music biz line alright. I've heard it a lot. And I think it's pure dee BS. Too many kids model their behavior after their slutty and profane celebrity idols. They see 'em on those sit-coms or movies and it affects the way they look at things. It's hard enough raisin' kids today without that kind of "help".
Let me ask you this WS, you think this is healthy for our kids and the US of A?
WS, that's the Hollywood and music biz line alright. I've heard it a lot. And I think it's pure dee BS. Too many kids model their behavior after their slutty and profane celebrity idols. They see 'em on those sit-coms or movies and it affects the way they look at things. It's hard enough raisin' kids today without that kind of "help".
Let me ask you this WS, you think this is healthy for our kids and the US of A?
WSClark52 said:
"Let me ask you this WS, you think this is healthy for our kids and the US of A?"
As the father of three adult kids that have turned out very, very well with an extremely liberal father, I think that the notion of popular culture is overblown. Kids will naturally rebel to a degree, but the rebellion today is nothing compared to the rebellion of the Sixties.
....... and, So' Red, I am a notorious free thinker, so please do not suggest that I am parroting a Hollywood excuse or rationale.
The values that our children have cannot be overturned by a music video or a "B" movie. If that is possible, then we have done a damned poor job of raising them.
My son just turned twenty - I have had custody of him since he was two years old. All of his life, I have taught him that ALL people are created equally.
Do you think that he would become homophobic because of an Eminem video or exposure to a Vin Diesel movie?
I think not.......
As the father of three adult kids that have turned out very, very well with an extremely liberal father, I think that the notion of popular culture is overblown. Kids will naturally rebel to a degree, but the rebellion today is nothing compared to the rebellion of the Sixties.
....... and, So' Red, I am a notorious free thinker, so please do not suggest that I am parroting a Hollywood excuse or rationale.
The values that our children have cannot be overturned by a music video or a "B" movie. If that is possible, then we have done a damned poor job of raising them.
My son just turned twenty - I have had custody of him since he was two years old. All of his life, I have taught him that ALL people are created equally.
Do you think that he would become homophobic because of an Eminem video or exposure to a Vin Diesel movie?
I think not.......
TRACY said:
FUNDIE...WE AGREE!
I don't know why you wanna be called fundie.
Your words don't reflect the narrow fundy views at all.
Oh, and I forgot about the baptism.
Really though, if I were to accept the creed, and die before being baptized, I don't think the God of my understanding would cast me out.
When I say fundie, I mean someone like a fellow on another blog who told me that since the bible never specifically mentions evolution, then it does not exist! Shee-eeesh. It never mentions a lot of things, like ummmm,.....hydrogen. Does that mean it doesn't exist?
I don't know why you wanna be called fundie.
Your words don't reflect the narrow fundy views at all.
Oh, and I forgot about the baptism.
Really though, if I were to accept the creed, and die before being baptized, I don't think the God of my understanding would cast me out.
When I say fundie, I mean someone like a fellow on another blog who told me that since the bible never specifically mentions evolution, then it does not exist! Shee-eeesh. It never mentions a lot of things, like ummmm,.....hydrogen. Does that mean it doesn't exist?
.morg said:
"The film and music industries only REFLECT society - they do not determine the values of society."
How true WS since this is a capitalist country first and foremost profit goes before anything that is the true religion.
How true WS since this is a capitalist country first and foremost profit goes before anything that is the true religion.
WSClark said:
Over the weekend, I read that John McCain was a little pissed off that a reporter asked him about his claim that one could walk through some Baghdad neighborhoods safely. McCain also claimed that General Petraeus toured Baghdad daily in an unarmed Humvee.
During McCain's visit to Iraq, Petraeus toured Baghdad with McCain with 100 armed soldiers, three Blackhawk helicopters, full body armor, etc. Obviously Johnny was talking out his ass.
My question is very simple: Why haven't the conservatives called McCain on this point?
Why? He was OBVIOUSLY trying to BS the American public. If Hillary tried that approach, the press would be all over her.
So why the pass for McCain?
Liberal media, my ass.
During McCain's visit to Iraq, Petraeus toured Baghdad with McCain with 100 armed soldiers, three Blackhawk helicopters, full body armor, etc. Obviously Johnny was talking out his ass.
My question is very simple: Why haven't the conservatives called McCain on this point?
Why? He was OBVIOUSLY trying to BS the American public. If Hillary tried that approach, the press would be all over her.
So why the pass for McCain?
Liberal media, my ass.
Predestined said:
Linda,
As life slows down (and goes by much faster), it's nice to be able to kick back a little and mellow. *grin*
I think I've always had more liberal views, yet there have been some conservative ones mixed in. I really don't try to label them. It would only confuse me more. But, really, I think those conservative ones were there more while raising my kids. I wasn't as strict as my parents were (and they weren't terribly so), but as a parent I kept involved as much as I could and had rules I expected to be obeyed.
There are still things I find myself agreeing with Conservatives/Republicans on more than Liberals/Democrats, but that doesn't really bother me, because my values, choices, and decisions are not dictated by party lines. Most just happen to fall in line more with Dem/Lib thinking.
I think we're doin' good as we edge into our "Golden Years." ;)
As life slows down (and goes by much faster), it's nice to be able to kick back a little and mellow. *grin*
I think I've always had more liberal views, yet there have been some conservative ones mixed in. I really don't try to label them. It would only confuse me more. But, really, I think those conservative ones were there more while raising my kids. I wasn't as strict as my parents were (and they weren't terribly so), but as a parent I kept involved as much as I could and had rules I expected to be obeyed.
There are still things I find myself agreeing with Conservatives/Republicans on more than Liberals/Democrats, but that doesn't really bother me, because my values, choices, and decisions are not dictated by party lines. Most just happen to fall in line more with Dem/Lib thinking.
I think we're doin' good as we edge into our "Golden Years." ;)
WSClark said:
"I think we're doin' good as we edge into our "Golden Years." ;)"
You are in big trouble, Pre Girl!!!!! Same with you, Linda Inks!!!!
Jeeeeeeeez, Golden Years??????
Are you suggesting that we are getting OLD?????????
Ha!!!!!!!!
I am only as old as you look. Or, you are only as old as I feel. Maybe it is I feel as old as you look.
Whatever. What were we talking about? Did you ask me a question?
You are in big trouble, Pre Girl!!!!! Same with you, Linda Inks!!!!
Jeeeeeeeez, Golden Years??????
Are you suggesting that we are getting OLD?????????
Ha!!!!!!!!
I am only as old as you look. Or, you are only as old as I feel. Maybe it is I feel as old as you look.
Whatever. What were we talking about? Did you ask me a question?
Predestined said:
WSC,
I have a personal request. Would it be all right if I used some of the unusual town names you mentioned on Saturday? It would sure save me some research time and are exactly what I need for a book I'm working on (fiction).
I have a personal request. Would it be all right if I used some of the unusual town names you mentioned on Saturday? It would sure save me some research time and are exactly what I need for a book I'm working on (fiction).
Danny said:
Why? He was OBVIOUSLY trying to BS the American public. If Hillary tried that approach, the press would be all over her.
So why the pass for McCain?
I ask myself the same thing. If it is so safe over there, why the military entourage? However, at the same time, he is a presidential candidate, so I understand the actual reasoning behind it. Yet, and while I don't agree with Hillary on a few issues, I could see the media lambasting her if she said what McCain said, and then had the military escort.
*rolls eyes* Presidential candidate(no matter who) is going to get it, yet some are going to get called on it and others are not. Sheesh... seriously.
Tracy,
About the bible not saying things. Yeah I know what you mean. Which is why when I argue a point, I make the attempt to keep religion out of it. Though I'll admit some of my ideas may be biased. ;)
So why the pass for McCain?
I ask myself the same thing. If it is so safe over there, why the military entourage? However, at the same time, he is a presidential candidate, so I understand the actual reasoning behind it. Yet, and while I don't agree with Hillary on a few issues, I could see the media lambasting her if she said what McCain said, and then had the military escort.
*rolls eyes* Presidential candidate(no matter who) is going to get it, yet some are going to get called on it and others are not. Sheesh... seriously.
Tracy,
About the bible not saying things. Yeah I know what you mean. Which is why when I argue a point, I make the attempt to keep religion out of it. Though I'll admit some of my ideas may be biased. ;)
WSClark said:
Pre, I love to claim credit, being the egomaniac that I was, or am, or what was the question I asked you????
Sorry, I am just in the messin' mood......
Anyway, I stole that stuff from the following site:
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hall/8701/t...
The one you can have is Jarvis Store, KY, which is my place of birth.............
Sorry, I am just in the messin' mood......
Anyway, I stole that stuff from the following site:
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hall/8701/t...
The one you can have is Jarvis Store, KY, which is my place of birth.............
Steven Davis said:
This was a great thread. WS, I have been to Humptulips, Washington. Of course, I was the first ever to ask the locals if the name came from some variety of perverted botanist. "No" was the answer. It was an Indian word - I can't recall what it is supposed to mean. Age and memory, you know...
Take care all. I was looking for the history and politics of embryonic stem cell research article from _Nature_ that I have posted at the other site, but was unable to find it. Scientists in this area take great care to not use embryos that have a neural tube - the very earliest of development of a spinal cord and nervous system. I think it is possible for all of us to engage in a debate on this subject and come to reasonable conclusions. Good night.
Take care all. I was looking for the history and politics of embryonic stem cell research article from _Nature_ that I have posted at the other site, but was unable to find it. Scientists in this area take great care to not use embryos that have a neural tube - the very earliest of development of a spinal cord and nervous system. I think it is possible for all of us to engage in a debate on this subject and come to reasonable conclusions. Good night.
TRACY said:
Danny~AMEN!
I've been through 'scripture wars'.
It's useless and spiritually unrewarding.
Pre-D~~town names?
I have a collection of old stamps from here in Kanass that are all postmarked with names of towns that no longer exist! To somebody with a collectors mentality this is very very cool.
I've been through 'scripture wars'.
It's useless and spiritually unrewarding.
Pre-D~~town names?
I have a collection of old stamps from here in Kanass that are all postmarked with names of towns that no longer exist! To somebody with a collectors mentality this is very very cool.
lindainks55 said:
Tracy,
A Challenge. I read it the first time a couple of weeks ago (you sent me the link). I read it yesterday (but must admit hurriedly), than I read it again this morning.
Each time I've read something new. I read all the words three times but different words stuck out and said something to me each time. Hmmm. I must read that challenge often!
A Challenge. I read it the first time a couple of weeks ago (you sent me the link). I read it yesterday (but must admit hurriedly), than I read it again this morning.
Each time I've read something new. I read all the words three times but different words stuck out and said something to me each time. Hmmm. I must read that challenge often!
Wichi said:
Hi all....still trying to get in!
Pre, I have some good names for you...like Toadsuck. Yup, actual town in Ark.
Pre, I have some good names for you...like Toadsuck. Yup, actual town in Ark.
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