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Crime and Justice

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Submitted by Danny R.

One of the points of Justice is to provide an appropriate punishment so as to deter crime. However, what is an appropriate punishment and further, if a particular punishment deters crime when would it be cruel and unusual? Both questions have what at first appear to be simple answers, however the application of the simple answer is difficult.

When looking and asking what an appropriate punishment is, one comes to the answer of: a punishment that stops or deters the crime in question. So lets pick on rape. We know rape occurs, and at first appearances, seems to be on the rise(though some of this could be attributed to an increase in reporting of the crime as women become more confident in reporting it). So, if rapes are increasing in number then does this mean the current punishment of a rather small jail sentence is the appropriate punishment? I'd argue no. So what if a rapist were to be castrated? If no lesser punishment worked to deter rape, would this then be cruel and unusual?

In defining cruel and unusual, one must understand that cruel and unusual has the general meaning of stating, anything that goes beyond what is necessary to deter or prevent a crime from happening. An argument often used though, is what does victim facilitation play in this? Should the punishment be less of the victim helped to facilitate the crime? For instance, should it be a felony charge for stealing a car if the victim started the car, left it unlocked and running in his or her driveway? Or in the case of our rapist above, if the woman being raped was out selling her sexual related services?

So lets argue about castration to solve our problem regarding rape. Since it has an appearance that rape isn't being stopped or deterred through jail time. Should a more "cruel and unusual" punishment take place? In this case, lets say it were proven that castration were to reduce the number of rape cases? When no other lesser punishment did, would castration at this point be cruel and unusual? Should castration take place on the first occurrence of the crime or should it be a three strikes and now we get lop off Mr. Happy? In this particular case, I'd argue that the castration, if no other lesser punishment deters the crime of rape wouldn't be cruel or unusual. However, courts state that this is cruel and unusual because the rapist in question would no longer be able to have children of his own in the future. But would this not lead to men thinking twice before they go and exert their power and control over the females in question?

For further thought, some would argue that if we can't control the crime anyway, why not make it legal(as in the case of drugs and drug use). Well, lets examine this also, we have laws against murder, however, murder doesn't stop because of laws against it, or because the death penalty doesn't entirely prevent it, so should we make murder legal? The answer is no. Some would argue that the drug addict doesn't hurt anyone but him or herself. Does he really not hurt anyone else? When looking at the family structure of the truly addicted drug addict, we find dysfunctional families, many of whom break down or fall apart and left hurting without a dad or a mom, or a lost sister or brother when the sibling is killed in a gang related shooting over where drugs were obtained.

The real questions lie here, the ultimate answers are not so easy to come by. I didn't provide to many of my own thoughts on this, primarily for the purpose of discussion.

TRACY said:
 
Just as we should be attempting to eliminate wars out of our national relationships, and just as it is obvious today that the process of drastic penalties has not succeeded in preventing crime, or in deterring people from violent selfishness (for that is what all crime is), and just as the social attitude (in contradistinction to the anti-social position of all law-breakers) is being regarded as desirable, and taught in our schools, so it is beginning to dawn upon the public consciousness, that the inculcation of right relations, and the spread of self-control, and the growth of unselfishness (and these surely are the goal, subjective and oft unrealized, of all legal procedure) are the needed approach to the young.
Crime will be stamped out when the environing conditions in which children live are bettered. The old methods must give way to the new, and the conservative attitude must be dropped in favor of religious attitudes. When I say religious, I do not refer to doctrinal and theological teaching. I mean the cultivation of those attitudes and conditions, which will evoke tolerant, loving reality in man, bring the inner spiritual man to the foreground of consciousness, and thus produce the recognition of God Immanent.
 
posted 963 days ago
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Vaughn Tolle said:
 
Danny, it will be difficult for me to respond to your post unbiased by my legal education and the teachings provided therein as to the meaning of "cruel and unusual punishment". So, in lieu thereof, I proffer the following.

First of all, to my mind, what you are terming "justice" in your first sentence is really "criminal law" or "penal statutes". To me, justice is a concept, an ideal which is generally unobtainable by humans, as imperfect as we are, and encompasses more than your stated thoughts on what we, as a society, have defined as criminal behavior.

Regarding castration as a punishment for rape: would this really help? I ask this out of some ignorance as to the physical effects of castration. It is my understanding (please, others with knowledge chime in here) that post-puberty physical castration in fact does not effect the ability of the castrated male to achieve an erection; and, if rape is, as I believe, not a sexual crime but a crime of assertion of physical control by a stronger person over a weaker person, with the sex act used as the means, is castration the answer? Or is there a way, via "drugs", therapy, a combination thereof, other methods, to diminish the need for the stronger one to control the weaker one? If so, would not this be the preferred "punishment"?

Work beckons, and I have more to add; let's just say "to be continued" for now.
 
posted 963 days ago
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TRACY said:
 
To anybody interested in this morbid topic,
the Parsons State Hospital runs a program for sex offenders.
I do not know what 'treatment' involves.
What I do know is that they have developed what I call a 'peter meter'. That is, a device that supposedly measures sexual arousal.
So, if you have a pedophile offender they attach this device to the offender, put him in a vehicle and run him by the school playground to see what the device records.
There was a big write up in the Parsons Sun all about it.
For those that have never been to Parsons, and are not familiar with the state hospital, I think you should know this. The hospital is an open, unfenced, lightly patrolled facility. It's probably been 20 years ago that one of the 'clients' escaped and killed a little girl at a nearby gradeschool.
Now, I'm all for treatment, but.........
would you want them being treated, litterally in your back yard?
 
posted 963 days ago
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Vaughn Tolle said:
 
TRACY, it's bound to be in someone's back yard, so to speak. Thus, better physical security? Other ways to minimize escapes? I'm open for suggestions.
 
posted 963 days ago
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Danny said:
 
That is what I'm trying to figure out. You are correct though, I used justice a little liberally I think also. This is really more about criminal behavior.

In so far as castration, it is the question, if no lesser punishment worked, would that be something to consider? I'm not saying these are valid answers, certainly treatment options should be available.

Crime and punishment are one of those things that are cause and effect. However, punishment attempts to carry the additional role of attempting to deter crime(it doesn't stop it), however it may make one think, if I do crime A am I willing(if I get caught) to do punishment B. I suppose that is more what I'm thinking.

VT, you are correct about rape, it is generally a crime about power and control. I'm not certain it is in every case, but I do believe the majority of rape would be well defined as that.

 
posted 963 days ago
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TRACY said:
 
VT, I'm not familiar enough with the place to really say.
It's just creepy that they put a lie detector on somebody's prick and them run them by a line-up of little kids.
I'm sure as far as the state is concerned, they will say that these are non-violent offenders, thus the light security. Fine, IF you trust govt with this.
I don't know if the peter meter can be fooled just like a lie detector, but I would imagine so.
 
posted 963 days ago
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Julie said:
 
Danny,
You bring up some very valid concerns with deterring crimes.
But with our current judicial system, just about any crime can be plea bargained unto a lesser crime (at the discretion of the prosecutor). Speeding can become careless driving (so it won't go on your driving record). Rape can become aggravated sexual battery.
However as long as there is plea negotiations for major violent crimes (and as long as a victim's sexual history is used against him/her in rape cases) what can be used as a deterrent? A 20 year sentence is bargained down to less than 3 years. If a person has been held on bond - that time can go for time served and the defendant can be released almost immediately.
But I think this is a disservice to the victims. They rarely have enough notice to make additional preparations for their safety, to move, install a security system. For years (if not the rest of their life) they will constantly look over their shoulder wondering if they will be victimized again.

I don't think that rape is necessarily becoming more frequent but reported more. Even 10 years ago women who were raped by (ex)boyfriends or acquaintances, even strangers (although by far the majority of rapes are by somebody the victim knows) were told 'well you asked for it' or ' you led them on' by the mode of dress or even mild flirtation. Granted, there will always be some that said the women asked for it but now it is generally understood that no - the women didn't ask for it and that it isn't their fault.





 
posted 963 days ago
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Danny said:
 
Julie,

I don't think victim facilitation should play a role in the outcome of a trial in regards to a crime. Just because the crime was made 'easier' to commit doesn't make it some how less of a crime.

 
posted 963 days ago
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Vaughn Tolle said:
 
Danny, a bit more on "cruel and unsual" punishments.

There are many cases in the jurisprudential history which find punishments for certain crimes or punishments of a certain class of offenders, once widely accepted, have become "cruel and unusual" for a variety of reasons. I won't belabor these, just pointing out the changes over time.

Turning specifically to your suggestion of consideration of castration as a punishment for rape, I would argue that at the present time, such would most likely be held "cruel and unusual". First, to my knowledge, there is no jurisdiction within the United States which authorizes such; thus, the "unusual" part of the test. Second, as to the "cruel" part; there are SCOTUS decisions concerning the right to procreate (or to not procreate) as being within the basic Constitutional rights of the citizens. Castration, in and of itself, would theoretically prevent a convicted rapist who was so punished from being able to exercise such right. Prima facie, a "cruel" punishment.

Further analysis would be required, however; other rights, such as the right to vote, is denied certain felons convicted of certain crimes, for various periods of time (or for life) depending upon the statutes of the several jurisdictions (federal and state). Conviction of a felony also proscribes the right of a citizen so convicted to own or possess a firearm, which apparently would be violative of the Second Amendment. Thus, we, as a society, have determined that in certain cases, carefully defined, appropriate punishment for certain crimes include the proscription of basic Constitutional rights. It therefore may be argued that if the punishment of castration is an option in only certain delneated specifically heinous cases of rape, for example, then the imposition of such a punishment would not be in and of itself cruel.

We then need to turn to the issue of deterrence, however, in this case, deterrence of the individual's commission of another rape(s) once released from confinement following his castration. I submit that without more information I possess, this cannot be shown. If, then, there is no physical deterrence (for lack of a better phrase) of an individual's desire to rape following castration, then the punishment falls back into the "cruel" category (assuming, arguendo, that sufficient jurisdictions have adopted this to make it not "unusual").

As you will note, I have made no arguments concerning mental capacity of the convicted felon, nor his age; these most certainly would have some bearing upon the ultimate issue. I have attempted to share some thoughts on the issue you raised concerning "cruel and unusual punishment" with a view towards castration in rape cases.
 
posted 963 days ago
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TRACY said:
 
VT, Danny, Julie~
Just interested in your thoughts on computer sex crimes.
When I first heard about police operations baiting pedophiles online, forgive me, nut my first thought was, "Wow, the cop is pretending to be a little kid, couldn't the perp just say he was pretending to be a wierdo?"
I remember when I was a kid, you always heard about 'entrapment' as an illegal law enforcement tool.
Did I just imagine that, or did they just make it legal?
Other charges that I saw locally were 'attempt to possess drugs' with 'intent to sell'.
Now, I don't remember details, but seems to me that somebody went to jail for thinking or wishing for something illegal. Kinda' like the computer pedophile?
 
posted 963 days ago
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Vaughn Tolle said:
 
TRACY, the "entrapment" defense is still valid as such; it is a very hard defense to mount, however. Won't belabor it here; long time, no criminal defense work.

As to "intent to sell" types of laws; much of the ambiguity in those has been overcome by a rebuttable presumption in the law concerning the quantity of the contraband in the possession of the person arrested.
 
posted 963 days ago
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Julie said:
 
Tracy,
With regards to the computer sex crimes. It is my understanding that the cops pretending to be kids aren't necessarily focusing in on one particular individual - they're just out there 'fishing' to see if anyone takes the bait. I don't think the cops post online "hey I'm a 9 year old girl who wants to get freaky with a 50 year old hairy fat man". I think that the cops act like a normal kid talking about school, sports, movies etc. I think that the perps start out talking about kid stuff and then if the perp wants to meet up for 'fun times' that's when they're busted. I don't think entrapment works here because it's the perp that's setting up the meeting for unlawful/immoral purposes.
I think it's kinda like prostitution stings where the cops make the john name a price for a particular sexual act. They don't arrest the john for talking to the 'prostitute' but for the offer to exchange money for sex.
 
posted 963 days ago
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Vaughn Tolle said:
 
Julie, good explanation, and much simpler than any I could have provided. :-)
 
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Danny said:
 
Tracy,

Entrapment, and VT may be better qualified to answer this, is where a law enforcement official initiates the potential for crime to occur. There is better wording for it than that. Basically, if I were a police officer and I came up to you said, do you want to buy some drugs, if you did, and then I arrested you.

In this situation with computer sex crimes, the potential criminal in question is the one who initiates the crime. Just because he/she thinks that he/she is talking to a child, who didn't say anything other than mentioning age/sex/location.

VT,

Thank you for going into more detail. The second degree in criminal justice is really just that, attempting to understand applications of law as related to law enforcement. Since I'm no lawyer, I thought the interest in understanding crime and prevention would be an interesting topic. :D
 
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Predestined said:
 
One of the officers in Wichita's Missing and Exploited Chidren department came and gave a talk at a meeting I attended a few years ago. What I remember regarding the Internet was that a meeting place is arranged and an officer (a female officer who looks very young) is there posing as the "victim". They have to wait until the suspected perp (would that be perv perp?) approaches the girl with a sexual advance. Isn't this the same thing that's used in cracking down on prostitution? And, if so, wouldn't that mean that it's considered legal and not entrapment?

There's information on the FBI website about this.
 
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TRACY said:
 
Now it makes a little more sense. I think.
Talking to minors (real or percieved) in a sexually explicit way should be a crime, wether on the internet or in person.
I guess you really have to wait for the perp to actually do or say something illegal first.
 
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Vaughn Tolle said:
 
Correct, Tracy.

Pre, what you describe is indeed "legal" and not entrapment.
 
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Predestined said:
 
I doubt there's any deterent imaginable that would stop all crime completely. Right now, it's obvious that very little does, whether it's rape, murder, burglary or whatever. Criminals don't expect to get caught when they do the crime.

Cutting off hands doesn't stop people in other countries from stealing.

And VT is right. Rape is not a sex crime, except that it's used as a means of control.

Julie, sorry I missed your comments earlier. You're right on about how the Internet stings work.
 
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