Danny said:
I have a headache. Migraine and still working. Praying that said headache will soon subside(go Advil go).
Danny said:
http://tinyurl.com/35nkcb
In my daily reading of things technology related. I came across this article. Tiny robots that may have the potential to treat certain cancers. These particular robots are capable of swimming through the bloodstream(veins and arteries). Neat to say the least.
In my daily reading of things technology related. I came across this article. Tiny robots that may have the potential to treat certain cancers. These particular robots are capable of swimming through the bloodstream(veins and arteries). Neat to say the least.
Dave Shuck said:
Danny, have you ever read Michael Crichton's "Prey". It is centered on nano-technology where swarms of tiny robots can enter the body for medical purposes, and they have the ability to learn and adapt to their environments. By the title, you can guess which direction that heads! It is a gripping story.
My Dad and I actually listened to that audio book as we made the drive too and from the Grand Canyon when we hiked it a couple of years ago. There were some gas/lunch stops where we didn't want to turn off the story!
My Dad and I actually listened to that audio book as we made the drive too and from the Grand Canyon when we hiked it a couple of years ago. There were some gas/lunch stops where we didn't want to turn off the story!
Danny said:
Dave,
I've not read that particular book. Though interestingly over lunch and friend and I were talking about Michael Crichton and another book of his. State of Fear I think it was.
I'll check out Prey though.
I've not read that particular book. Though interestingly over lunch and friend and I were talking about Michael Crichton and another book of his. State of Fear I think it was.
I'll check out Prey though.
Vaughn Tolle said:
I see from cnn.com that the Supremes have issued their opinion on race as a factor in public school assignment. No opinion to read at yet, the banner indicates the opinion places limitations on racial consideration.
Rox said:
Priceless! I'm totally curious to see how this one plays out:
Bush won't supply subpoenaed documents
http://tinyurl.com/2woeyy
Bush won't supply subpoenaed documents
http://tinyurl.com/2woeyy
Rox said:
Danny, is Advil all you use for migraines? Do you know what brings them on? How often do you have them? I ask because my best friend has migraines constantly, meaning sometimes 2 a week, if she's able to get rid of the first. She's been to a national clinic in Chicago for these, but little was determined. I have some tricks, if you're interested.
Dave, are you a Crichton fan?
Dave, are you a Crichton fan?
Vaughn Tolle said:
Well, Rox, if there's no compromise, it will be played out in the courts, I suspect. Given the normal process and time involved, there's a realistic chance that the case will still be pending at some level on Inauguration Day, 2009.
Danny said:
Rox,
Yes, generally I use just two Advil, if I catch it early enough it works and I just end up with a nice dull pain the rest of the day. What causes it:
Florescent lights, start CRT style monitors and TVs, etc. However, they aren't quite as bad as they used to be. Diet and exercise has actually made them occur less often(perhaps because I'm not staring at a monitor 24x7).
As for other things upper body and neck exercises and stretches have helped alot. Granted maybe migraine isn't the right word, but I'm told the fact that I get sick from how bad the pain gets that is what they are. Advil doesn't get rid of the pain entirely and it doesn't work if I take it too late, so I generally stay pretty vigilant about them.
Yes, generally I use just two Advil, if I catch it early enough it works and I just end up with a nice dull pain the rest of the day. What causes it:
Florescent lights, start CRT style monitors and TVs, etc. However, they aren't quite as bad as they used to be. Diet and exercise has actually made them occur less often(perhaps because I'm not staring at a monitor 24x7).
As for other things upper body and neck exercises and stretches have helped alot. Granted maybe migraine isn't the right word, but I'm told the fact that I get sick from how bad the pain gets that is what they are. Advil doesn't get rid of the pain entirely and it doesn't work if I take it too late, so I generally stay pretty vigilant about them.
Dave Shuck said:
@Rox - That is the only book I have "read" from him. I probably wouldn't qualify as a true fan. :)
@Julie - Hope you guys have a great meetup! Did anyone get their "We're HUGE in Wichita!" shirt to wear to it?
http://www.cafepress.com/instantspot.133325455
@Julie - Hope you guys have a great meetup! Did anyone get their "We're HUGE in Wichita!" shirt to wear to it?
http://www.cafepress.com/instantspot.133325455
Rox said:
Danny, florescent lights are one of the triggers for my friend. Wind is another. Prior to a storm--I suspect a drop in barometric pressure--is also a biggie. Each person has his/her own triggers.
It's good to know you can tame them if you get a jump on them. I was told 30 years ago that there were no tests to diagnose migraines, and they relied on two things, the first being heredity, and the second the upchucking. Of course the latter could also be an aspirin reaction--I switched to Tylenol. They prescribed ergomot (nasty, nasty stuff that goes under your tongue...made me toss my cookies) and valium. I think I've finally outgrown them, as I rarely have even one or two a year, while my friend lives with them weekly. Women are more prone to migraines than men, but I'm seeing a lot more men with them these days. Good luck with yours!
It's good to know you can tame them if you get a jump on them. I was told 30 years ago that there were no tests to diagnose migraines, and they relied on two things, the first being heredity, and the second the upchucking.
Rox said:
Dave, I guess one doesn't quite make a fan. Neither does 3, and that's what I've read. Andromeda Strain (I saw the movie first back in the 70's), The Terminal Man, and Jurasic Park, before the movie.
My oldest has a "thing" for biochemical warfare. She'll read fiction and especially non-fiction. I think she just loves to scare herself.
My oldest has a "thing" for biochemical warfare. She'll read fiction and especially non-fiction. I think she just loves to scare herself.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Hope all who were able to come to the meetup had a good time. Been thinking about you as I sit here grinding through the necessary end-of-month tasks!
lindainks55 said:
I've been without a computer for a week, wasn't able to make the meetup because of company and I'm feeling very distant and removed from everyone and everything. Who made the meetup? I wish I could have been there. I have more company arriving tomorrow (son from Boston) so it will be another week before things are back to normal around here. I hope everyone has a most enjoyable 4th. Anyone have special plans? We might need to make plans for building an ark!
WSClark said:
I didn't attend the meet for the same reasons that I didn't want to attend the last one - the price was just too high.
Some day in the near future I will host my own, invite only, meet, and I hope everyone that feels comfortable will attend.
That means you, Linda Inks.
Until then, I intend to stay away from folks that have intentions of intimidating me with their cap pistols.
Sorry - with or without guns, they are people that I do not want to be near.
Especially with my granddaughter with me.
End of story.
Some day in the near future I will host my own, invite only, meet, and I hope everyone that feels comfortable will attend.
That means you, Linda Inks.
Until then, I intend to stay away from folks that have intentions of intimidating me with their cap pistols.
Sorry - with or without guns, they are people that I do not want to be near.
Especially with my granddaughter with me.
End of story.
Rox said:
That's sad. There were only 4 of us, and I didn't get there until 2. It was Julie, WichiWoman, Mr. C(ontroversy) and me. Unless one of us was packing, there were no guns, no arguments, no problems.
lindainks55 said:
It would have been greeeeeat to sit and visit with that small group! Sometimes you get to talk more when there are fewer. It was one of those weeks last week ending with my sis and her hubby coming Friday from KC. I hope there are lots of next times and I get to ALL of them.
Will, yep! you promised and I know you keep promises.
Are we gonna get a break from the rain today? Is everyone thinking dry thoughts? My son is arriving this afternoon and bringing a lady friend. This should be interesting!
Will, yep! you promised and I know you keep promises.
Are we gonna get a break from the rain today? Is everyone thinking dry thoughts? My son is arriving this afternoon and bringing a lady friend. This should be interesting!
Gster said:
Sorry the turn out was down- I know I was to bring the plates and eating utensils, and ended up swilling Pepto for the weekend. Anyone know how to cure a pink tongue- I'm getting "looks" at work today?
Vaughn Tolle said:
Hmm, according to cnn.com, the appellate court has rejected Scooter's appeal of the order denying him the right to remain out on bail pending appeal, on the grounds that "no substantial question" has been presented. Well, that now makes me 0 for 2 in predicting this. Scooter may now appeal to the circuit sitting en banc, or to SCOTUS. No further predictions here.
lindainks55 said:
I see a pardon coming more quickly than we originally predicted.
Vaughn, I'm watching the little airplane and checking the blogs. If I clean anything else I will be cleaning that which is already clean just like Wayne accuses and it's not his day to be right so I have to be careful!
Vaughn, I'm watching the little airplane and checking the blogs. If I clean anything else I will be cleaning that which is already clean just like Wayne accuses and it's not his day to be right so I have to be careful!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Linda, back away from the cleaning supplies. That's it, now, just take a deep breath and take your pup for a walk.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Well, no pardon, but a sentence commutation. Good middle of the road move to keep his supporters in check, but not (yet) an overrule of the judicial process. Given the comments attributed to the Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit Monday, I'd opine that the appeal is in for rough sledding.
Linda, I suspect you're busy what with guests and all. Hope all is going well.
Linda, I suspect you're busy what with guests and all. Hope all is going well.
Gster said:
I don't think we've heard the last of Libby. This is less helping a friend out of a "bind" and more a case of sealing a potential leak into the inner workings of Bushco. I expect a full pardon before Bush checks out, to fully stop any futher revaltions by Libby.
Morality is an inconvienent obstacle to achieving the desired results, I guess. (?)
Morality is an inconvienent obstacle to achieving the desired results, I guess. (?)
Rod said:
I agree, Gster. More a lip-sealing act than anything. But you know what they say--Loose lips sink ships...and Administrations. ;)
Vaughn Tolle said:
Hypothesis: there is no reason to pardon Scooter, as without the jail term, there is no impetus to bargain with information on his part for a lighter sentence. Thus, Gster is at least partially correct in his position that this was a maintenance operation.
Hypothesis2: Assuming the appellate courts uphold the convictions, Scooter has nothing to gain by "spilling the beans", as it were. His convictions result in the loss of his law license in all likelihood, and there is nothing the DOJ can do to reverse the outcome of the case. Thus, an Inauguration eve pardon, enabling Mr. Libby to continue to represent folks like Mark Rich in attempting to receive a Presidential pardon, so he may continue earning a living and not be a continuing drag on the finances of his "friends".
Hypothesis2: Assuming the appellate courts uphold the convictions, Scooter has nothing to gain by "spilling the beans", as it were. His convictions result in the loss of his law license in all likelihood, and there is nothing the DOJ can do to reverse the outcome of the case. Thus, an Inauguration eve pardon, enabling Mr. Libby to continue to represent folks like Mark Rich in attempting to receive a Presidential pardon, so he may continue earning a living and not be a continuing drag on the finances of his "friends".
Gster said:
Vaughn- If there should be a pardon at a later date, what effect would that have on Libby's losing his law license , or disbarment. In fact, are those two things the same?
Vaughn Tolle said:
Gster, yes, they are the same to my mind, not to be confused with a suspension from practice.
Re: query #1, that's hard to say. Analogy, as imperfect as it is, to an expungement. Although an offense may be expunged from the record (treated as if it hadn't occurred for the public record), these are still taken into consideration upon admission to the bar, among other things. Thus, it is possible for a candidate for admission to the bar to not be admitted based upon the expunged conviction, which must be disclosed, even though there is nothing on the public record reflecting the same. A pardon places the individual into the place he/she was before the conviction, that is, no conviction, etc. Theoretically, this should then allow Mr. Libby to continue to practice law, and not face disbarment, as a pardon literally erases everything. I cannot recall clearly, but something in the back of my mind tells me that after RMN's pardon by Pres. Ford, he surrendered his California law license rather than to face disbarment proceedings. Maybe someone could "Google" this.
Re: query #1, that's hard to say. Analogy, as imperfect as it is, to an expungement. Although an offense may be expunged from the record (treated as if it hadn't occurred for the public record), these are still taken into consideration upon admission to the bar, among other things. Thus, it is possible for a candidate for admission to the bar to not be admitted based upon the expunged conviction, which must be disclosed, even though there is nothing on the public record reflecting the same. A pardon places the individual into the place he/she was before the conviction, that is, no conviction, etc. Theoretically, this should then allow Mr. Libby to continue to practice law, and not face disbarment, as a pardon literally erases everything. I cannot recall clearly, but something in the back of my mind tells me that after RMN's pardon by Pres. Ford, he surrendered his California law license rather than to face disbarment proceedings. Maybe someone could "Google" this.
Danny said:
Interesting reading here. I enjoy reading how law and application of law works. So I thank those for sharing knowledge about some of this. Much like I'll attempt to share knowledge of computing as I come up with interesting topics.
So for today, anybody who owns a computer and wants to look into simple(or more than simple programming) just for the curiosity factor I'd like to make a few recommendations:
1. KPL: Kids Programming Language. My 8 year niece using this had written a simple game of pong. Quite nifty to say the least in my opinion. It is simple, very similar to Visual Basic and has many good tutorials.
2. Visual Studio Express tools: C#, Visual Basic, WebDev, SQL Express. These are more technical oriented. However, Microsoft has put together some very nice help and discussion boards for supporting these. Also, their are many home grown examples and tutorials also provided by Microsoft.
Some cross platform tools that I've used:
Eclipse for Java or C++. This goes a bit beyond beginner. Generally I'd switch to it as you find you'd like to do a bit more.
BlueJ: A good learning environment for Java.
There are a great many others out there, I've not used all the ones that exists. But of the ones I have used: Visual Studio Express and Eclipse I've found them to be both suitable for learning and writing "real" code. However, for learning from the ground up I'd recommend KPL, though I've never used it myself. Based on the results I've seen from my niece I can only say that it must not be terribly difficult to use.
If anybody writes the next great application as a result of this, well that will be great! :D
So for today, anybody who owns a computer and wants to look into simple(or more than simple programming) just for the curiosity factor I'd like to make a few recommendations:
1. KPL: Kids Programming Language. My 8 year niece using this had written a simple game of pong. Quite nifty to say the least in my opinion. It is simple, very similar to Visual Basic and has many good tutorials.
2. Visual Studio Express tools: C#, Visual Basic, WebDev, SQL Express. These are more technical oriented. However, Microsoft has put together some very nice help and discussion boards for supporting these. Also, their are many home grown examples and tutorials also provided by Microsoft.
Some cross platform tools that I've used:
Eclipse for Java or C++. This goes a bit beyond beginner. Generally I'd switch to it as you find you'd like to do a bit more.
BlueJ: A good learning environment for Java.
There are a great many others out there, I've not used all the ones that exists. But of the ones I have used: Visual Studio Express and Eclipse I've found them to be both suitable for learning and writing "real" code. However, for learning from the ground up I'd recommend KPL, though I've never used it myself. Based on the results I've seen from my niece I can only say that it must not be terribly difficult to use.
If anybody writes the next great application as a result of this, well that will be great! :D
Vaughn Tolle said:
Hope all had a safe Fourth of July, awakening this morning with all appendages intact and unscarred. For one, I'm not a fan of mid-week holidays. Nothing like two "Mondays" and two "Fridays" in a five day period.
Danny said:
My wife and I traveled to see my mom and dad yesterday. Now I'm back at work, and not really sure what to do today.
Rox said:
Next year the 4th will be on a Friday, and we'll be back on track with the weekend again. Thank Leap Year for that one. :) But once the next four-year cycle goes through, we'll be smack in the middle of a mess again by 2012. At least that's what my finger counting tells me.
Julie said:
According to my perpetual calendar (hey don't knock it - it makes figuring out dates WONDERFUL and is reasonably fool proof) 2012 and 2013 will be mid week 4th of July's (Wed and Thurs).
Vaughn Tolle said:
Julie, perpetual calendars are wonderful things.
The difference, to my mind, between a Wednesday holiday and a Thursday holiday is that there's no "two Mondays" when the holiday is on a Thursday, even if I have to work on the Friday thereafter. Most folks don't bother to call, etc. in such a situation, compared to the Wednesday holiday, where it seems everyone who is off work due to the same on Thursday figures that's the time to call for any variety of reasons, creating a real logjam the last two days of the week. I know it sounds selfish, but it seems to make the week more lengthy when there is a mid-week (read Wednesday) holiday, and not a very pleasant thing. When the holiday is on a Tuesday, it just feels better, in that there are still three days after the holiday in which to accomplish things. This may just be me, but does anyone else have similar feelings/experiences?
The difference, to my mind, between a Wednesday holiday and a Thursday holiday is that there's no "two Mondays" when the holiday is on a Thursday, even if I have to work on the Friday thereafter. Most folks don't bother to call, etc. in such a situation, compared to the Wednesday holiday, where it seems everyone who is off work due to the same on Thursday figures that's the time to call for any variety of reasons, creating a real logjam the last two days of the week. I know it sounds selfish, but it seems to make the week more lengthy when there is a mid-week (read Wednesday) holiday, and not a very pleasant thing. When the holiday is on a Tuesday, it just feels better, in that there are still three days after the holiday in which to accomplish things. This may just be me, but does anyone else have similar feelings/experiences?
Danny said:
My thoughts on the Wednesday holiday. At least from a former retail perspective, is that the days leading up to the holiday slow down considerably, and the days after that speed up as now people want to solve all the problems they had but weren't worried about prior to the holiday... go figure.
Now back to work for me.
Now back to work for me.
lindainks55 said:
Hey friends! I miss you guys! Holidays don't mean much to bums (like ME!) but company kicks my butt. They left this afternoon. I look forward to getting back to ?normal?.
Chad's friend is a lovely lady. She is a Canadian -- lots of good conversations THERE! She is a scientist a few years behind Chad. Her defense is scheduled for late September and she has secured a post-doc position at the Salk Institute in San Diego. What a fun few days we had!
Among the talk we visited the Wichita Art Museum, Exploration Place -- the da Vinci exhibit is excellent! -- the new Keeper location is awe inspiring. Wichita is really a great city and a good time was had by all.
Chad's friend is a lovely lady. She is a Canadian -- lots of good conversations THERE! She is a scientist a few years behind Chad. Her defense is scheduled for late September and she has secured a post-doc position at the Salk Institute in San Diego. What a fun few days we had!
Among the talk we visited the Wichita Art Museum, Exploration Place -- the da Vinci exhibit is excellent! -- the new Keeper location is awe inspiring. Wichita is really a great city and a good time was had by all.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Linda, glad you survived.
On another topic, well, let the fun begin!
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/07...
On another topic, well, let the fun begin!
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/07...
lindainks55 said:
Any guesses on names and phone numbers that may be included in the listing "of her upscale and connected clientele"?
I am still hoping there are many avenues to (at least) embarrass both Cheney and Rove. I would prefer seeing both spend the balance of their lives in a jail cell, but anything they suffer will be well deserved!
I am still hoping there are many avenues to (at least) embarrass both Cheney and Rove. I would prefer seeing both spend the balance of their lives in a jail cell, but anything they suffer will be well deserved!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Linda, IIRC, there were many rumors flying when this case began. I believe at least one State Department official had used the services of the business, for a massage he claimed. Speculating madly, I suspect there will be a significant number of mid-level congressional staffers included, and perhaps a few from the White House.
Rox said:
A da Vinci exhibit at Exploration Place? I'd like to see that. I'll have to see how long it's running there and hope throughout the month. And it sounds like you had a wonderful time with your guest!
Cool news on the madame's list. I seem to be chuckling a lot lately at the fate of the PTB in this country. (PTB=Powers That Be) When I'm not sighing, that is (Libby's commutation).
Cool news on the madame's list. I seem to be chuckling a lot lately at the fate of the PTB in this country. (PTB=Powers That Be) When I'm not sighing, that is (Libby's commutation).
Vaughn Tolle said:
Anyone else find it curious that Mr. Libby was able to pay his fine in full yesterday when the President cited the effect of the trial, etc., on his family and their financial well being, among other things, in his decision to commute the sentence?
Now, I'm no criminal law expert, but is paying the fine an "acquiescence" in the verdict that would cause his appeal to be dismissed? In Kansas, in civil cases, paying damages assessed by a jury is an acquiescence in the verdict, which cuts off the right to appeal. I'm sure Mr. Libby's attorneys are better informed than I on this, but it is a curious action to be taking when a convicted person is appealing the convictions.
Now, I'm no criminal law expert, but is paying the fine an "acquiescence" in the verdict that would cause his appeal to be dismissed? In Kansas, in civil cases, paying damages assessed by a jury is an acquiescence in the verdict, which cuts off the right to appeal. I'm sure Mr. Libby's attorneys are better informed than I on this, but it is a curious action to be taking when a convicted person is appealing the convictions.
lindainks55 said:
Vaugh, we can hope Scooter faces something! I'm positive Cheney has ample funds to cover whatever Scooter needs. A full pardon and all the strings that need pulled is in the offing no later than Jan. 19, 2008.
Doesn't it also tell everyone involved in this corrupt administration who may be subject to any investigation that lying is the course to take!? There are no consequences if you lie - tell many lies, forget which one you told last time and make up anew one; just don't let the truth be known. The best justice money can buy is available to bushco.
Rox and everyone fascinated by da Vinci -- the exhibit takes time but is wonderful. In order to really appreciate all his mind was and all he created you must read a lot of material. But my 9 year old granddaughter was along and can now tell you some of what he painted and sculpted, that he was a master mathematician, engineer, inventor, anatomist, a geologist, etc.! Truly amazing!
Doesn't it also tell everyone involved in this corrupt administration who may be subject to any investigation that lying is the course to take!? There are no consequences if you lie - tell many lies, forget which one you told last time and make up anew one; just don't let the truth be known. The best justice money can buy is available to bushco.
Rox and everyone fascinated by da Vinci -- the exhibit takes time but is wonderful. In order to really appreciate all his mind was and all he created you must read a lot of material. But my 9 year old granddaughter was along and can now tell you some of what he painted and sculpted, that he was a master mathematician, engineer, inventor, anatomist, a geologist, etc.! Truly amazing!
Rox said:
Linda,
I had the opporutnity at the 1964 World's Fair in NYC to see the Pieta. It's a beautiful piece of art, and I have a small, 6" tall replica.
Da Vinci was, indeed a master of many things. I'm going to check out the Exploration Place website right now for info!
I had the opporutnity at the 1964 World's Fair in NYC to see the Pieta. It's a beautiful piece of art, and I have a small, 6" tall replica.
Da Vinci was, indeed a master of many things. I'm going to check out the Exploration Place website right now for info!
Danny said:
I went to go see the Titanic exhibit. That was pretty interesting, and when the "similar to" body works exhibit comes to town I plan on seeing it also. Smaller scale than body works 1 and 2, but I'm sure it will be as interesting.
On to something, that is going on the WEblog about nationalized healthcare. These were my two responses there. I'd be interested in seeing what others think here.
I don't think we need a full blown national healthcare plan, in the sense of how Canadiens, UK, Australia, and others have it.
I think tax breaks for employers(strictly monitored) who are providing health care would be good and then for those unemployeed or whose jobs(small business type, fast food, etc) don't provide insurance then have free to very low cost insurance(similar to Healthwave maybe) to help those families out.
The two fold benefit here, is employers then are not eating all the cost of health insurance entirely, and those unemployed, or not offered insurance at their places of employment could still access some form of insurance even if it isn't the greatest in the world.
=== second response on that thread ===
I don't have links, I do have friends who are doctors, both here and over seas. Those over seas(Australia) actually do complain about a shortage of doctors and much lower pay.
However, at the same time, not against things that may help to address the need for covering those whose jobs don't provide insurance. I'm not against getting better coverage for those who can't work(disabled, retired, etc). To help employers here provide health insurance, why not offer tax breaks?
It seems to me, we don't necessarily need this "national healthcare" in the sense other countries have it. In response to the "better health care systems of other countries". Have we looked at our society and our own ways of living? Obesity is pretty high in our country and I'd be willing to wager that plays a large part in our health problems also. I'd like to see statistics that take things that are controllable by the individual to an extent and then compare our health care systems.
So what are your thoughts?
On to something, that is going on the WEblog about nationalized healthcare. These were my two responses there. I'd be interested in seeing what others think here.
I don't think we need a full blown national healthcare plan, in the sense of how Canadiens, UK, Australia, and others have it.
I think tax breaks for employers(strictly monitored) who are providing health care would be good and then for those unemployeed or whose jobs(small business type, fast food, etc) don't provide insurance then have free to very low cost insurance(similar to Healthwave maybe) to help those families out.
The two fold benefit here, is employers then are not eating all the cost of health insurance entirely, and those unemployed, or not offered insurance at their places of employment could still access some form of insurance even if it isn't the greatest in the world.
=== second response on that thread ===
I don't have links, I do have friends who are doctors, both here and over seas. Those over seas(Australia) actually do complain about a shortage of doctors and much lower pay.
However, at the same time, not against things that may help to address the need for covering those whose jobs don't provide insurance. I'm not against getting better coverage for those who can't work(disabled, retired, etc). To help employers here provide health insurance, why not offer tax breaks?
It seems to me, we don't necessarily need this "national healthcare" in the sense other countries have it. In response to the "better health care systems of other countries". Have we looked at our society and our own ways of living? Obesity is pretty high in our country and I'd be willing to wager that plays a large part in our health problems also. I'd like to see statistics that take things that are controllable by the individual to an extent and then compare our health care systems.
So what are your thoughts?
Gster said:
I have to wonder about the quality of Islamic doctors when they can build bombs that won't explode. Are they the new Wiley Coyote with his Acme Co. products?
I'd sure want these guys operating on me!
They are their own joke.
I'd sure want these guys operating on me!
They are their own joke.
Danny said:
Gster,
I don't know about the quality of them. I do know that I have friends who practice medicine, and most of them are not bad. But have stated that many of their colleagues move to the US because of better working conditions and better pay. Also, they don't have to worry about shortages in money as much here as they do over seas.
I'm not certain that is indicative of all nationalized health plans or not. But I'll trust those working in the industry to paint a better picture of what may or may not be happening.
I don't know about the quality of them. I do know that I have friends who practice medicine, and most of them are not bad. But have stated that many of their colleagues move to the US because of better working conditions and better pay. Also, they don't have to worry about shortages in money as much here as they do over seas.
I'm not certain that is indicative of all nationalized health plans or not. But I'll trust those working in the industry to paint a better picture of what may or may not be happening.
Rox said:
Danny, I could argue with you all day long about National Healthcare. If the U.S. is such a magnificent country, one that all other countries look up to, why are we not the leader in everything? Why SHOULDN'T we have National Healthcare? In fact, why weren't we the leader in this?
What we have now is a conglomerate of companies that DO NOT CARE about the health of this nation. They care about how much they can make from it. True, the government could very well be the same way, but hopefully not to the extent we have now.
What we have now is a conglomerate of companies that DO NOT CARE about the health of this nation. They care about how much they can make from it. True, the government could very well be the same way, but hopefully not to the extent we have now.
Rox said:
Ask a doctor why he/she went into medicine. Was it to help people? Or was it to become wealthy? Maybe some lose sight of their original reason.
Gster said:
Danny- Actually what I meant was saying "tongue in cheek" was that it seems , at least to me, that the Muslim religion and mental illness go hand in hand. Beneath the veneer, I don't see them as even being civilized in light of the many acts of cruelity and violence committed. Rather than wanting to raise themselve up, they prefer tearing everyone down to their absymal level.
Gster said:
What I posted does not necessarily apply to those members of that religion here in the USA, at least currently.
G
G
Vaughn Tolle said:
Ah, the health care debate. I have come to the conclusion, over many years of considering the state of health care in this country, the increasing number of uninsured, etc., etc., that there needs to be established at a minimum a "single payer" system, removing the middleman insurance companies from the process. Who the single payer should be is open to debate. The administrative costs reported for Medicare seem to indicate that the government does a remarkable job, both in cost and quality of handling claims.
I do have an issue with those who champion the "market" as the solution to the current dilemma. I suggest that a "market" approach doesn't work well in cost containment, etc., where the demand for the service (medical) is relatively price inelastic. One may also argue that there is no "free market" for health care given the possible "artificial" barriers to entry by the professionals (e.g., a limited number of medical schools with admission requirements such that there is a carefully controlled number of new physicians coming into practice at any given time). Totally irrelevant to this discussion, but at the time I took antitrust law, my late professor was working on a Law Review article suggesting that the way medical services were delivered in this country was, in fact, a violation of the various antitrust statues for some of the reasons I've discussed.
Danny, your comments on comparison of our system vs. other countries' systems, with attention paid to isolation of variables connected with individual behavior are on point, IMHO. It is my sense, and only that, if such a study could be done, that our system of delivery of health care services would still come up lacking.
On the idea of tax breaks for employer provided health insurance, the same exists in various forms for business entities providing same. Generally, these are deductions, the plans must be non-discriminatory (but, due to the way this is implemented, it is possible to create different "classifications" of employees and pass muster by not discriminating within classifications but between classifications is OK, so long as the "highly compensated" are not overly favored), but the deductions provided do not come close to assuaging the financial pain incurred by small businesses, in particular, providing health insurance to employees at no or little cost. For example, if the cost to the employer to insure its employees under a modest plan is $1,000 per month per employee, the employer has 15 employees, the total cost of the insurance to the employer, if 100% employer provided, is $180,000/year. Assuming the employer is then in the 15% bracket (which, for small corporations after payment of necessary expenses including the insurance is not an unreasonable assumption), the tax benefit is $27,000. Where does it find the other $153,000?
Thus, the popularity of "cafeteria plans", where the employee elects to use a part of his earnings to pay the premium (or a significant portion thereof), such earnings then not subject to income taxation, etc. Similarly, the creation of the health savings account combined with a high-deductible insurance policy, with the employee's deductible being provided by direct deposit of pre-tax dollars into a health savings account to be used for health care costs (the deductible as an example) only, a bit like an IRA with restrictions to be sure. The high deductible policy is then more affordable to the employer/employee than a standard health policy. The problem is that many of the folks to whom this is offered cannot afford the diversion of the part of their wages into the account, in whole or in part. Using my above example, say it is possible to obtain a group policy of medical insurance with a $5,000 per year deductible at $200 per month per covered employee. This reduces the employer's cost (assuming it pays 100% of the premium) to $36,000 per year. Assuming, then, the plan calls for each employee to agree to defer from his/her compensation (saving income taxes to the employee) the deductible, each covered employee then "loses" $416.67/month from his/her wages. Assuming further that the employer isn't willing/cannot for fiscal reasons give each employee a raise sufficient to cover this in whole or in part, is this affordable at all to an employee whose gross wages are $30,000 per year, who is raising a family, buying a house, etc., whether or not the spouse works?
Tax credits have been championed by some as a way to resolve the dilemma. However, this raises another issue; can we reasonably afford the dimunition in revenue to the treasury of the loss of tax revenue. Hearkening back to my earlier example, I suggest that a dollar for dollar credit will leave many employers owing no income taxes, but as their gross income tax was less than the premiums paid for the year, what happens to the unused credit? Is the employer allowed to carry it forward, carry it back, or is it a totally "use it or lose it" proposition? So, we limit the credit to twenty-five cents on the dollar, or some other fraction. Again, from what source does the delta become satisfied?
I can continue to pontificate, but lunch calleth. Good questions that are raised by Danny,which should provoke thoughtful analysis rather than a "knee jerk" reaction such as "socialized medicine".
I do have an issue with those who champion the "market" as the solution to the current dilemma. I suggest that a "market" approach doesn't work well in cost containment, etc., where the demand for the service (medical) is relatively price inelastic. One may also argue that there is no "free market" for health care given the possible "artificial" barriers to entry by the professionals (e.g., a limited number of medical schools with admission requirements such that there is a carefully controlled number of new physicians coming into practice at any given time). Totally irrelevant to this discussion, but at the time I took antitrust law, my late professor was working on a Law Review article suggesting that the way medical services were delivered in this country was, in fact, a violation of the various antitrust statues for some of the reasons I've discussed.
Danny, your comments on comparison of our system vs. other countries' systems, with attention paid to isolation of variables connected with individual behavior are on point, IMHO. It is my sense, and only that, if such a study could be done, that our system of delivery of health care services would still come up lacking.
On the idea of tax breaks for employer provided health insurance, the same exists in various forms for business entities providing same. Generally, these are deductions, the plans must be non-discriminatory (but, due to the way this is implemented, it is possible to create different "classifications" of employees and pass muster by not discriminating within classifications but between classifications is OK, so long as the "highly compensated" are not overly favored), but the deductions provided do not come close to assuaging the financial pain incurred by small businesses, in particular, providing health insurance to employees at no or little cost. For example, if the cost to the employer to insure its employees under a modest plan is $1,000 per month per employee, the employer has 15 employees, the total cost of the insurance to the employer, if 100% employer provided, is $180,000/year. Assuming the employer is then in the 15% bracket (which, for small corporations after payment of necessary expenses including the insurance is not an unreasonable assumption), the tax benefit is $27,000. Where does it find the other $153,000?
Thus, the popularity of "cafeteria plans", where the employee elects to use a part of his earnings to pay the premium (or a significant portion thereof), such earnings then not subject to income taxation, etc. Similarly, the creation of the health savings account combined with a high-deductible insurance policy, with the employee's deductible being provided by direct deposit of pre-tax dollars into a health savings account to be used for health care costs (the deductible as an example) only, a bit like an IRA with restrictions to be sure. The high deductible policy is then more affordable to the employer/employee than a standard health policy. The problem is that many of the folks to whom this is offered cannot afford the diversion of the part of their wages into the account, in whole or in part. Using my above example, say it is possible to obtain a group policy of medical insurance with a $5,000 per year deductible at $200 per month per covered employee. This reduces the employer's cost (assuming it pays 100% of the premium) to $36,000 per year. Assuming, then, the plan calls for each employee to agree to defer from his/her compensation (saving income taxes to the employee) the deductible, each covered employee then "loses" $416.67/month from his/her wages. Assuming further that the employer isn't willing/cannot for fiscal reasons give each employee a raise sufficient to cover this in whole or in part, is this affordable at all to an employee whose gross wages are $30,000 per year, who is raising a family, buying a house, etc., whether or not the spouse works?
Tax credits have been championed by some as a way to resolve the dilemma. However, this raises another issue; can we reasonably afford the dimunition in revenue to the treasury of the loss of tax revenue. Hearkening back to my earlier example, I suggest that a dollar for dollar credit will leave many employers owing no income taxes, but as their gross income tax was less than the premiums paid for the year, what happens to the unused credit? Is the employer allowed to carry it forward, carry it back, or is it a totally "use it or lose it" proposition? So, we limit the credit to twenty-five cents on the dollar, or some other fraction. Again, from what source does the delta become satisfied?
I can continue to pontificate, but lunch calleth. Good questions that are raised by Danny,which should provoke thoughtful analysis rather than a "knee jerk" reaction such as "socialized medicine".
lindainks55 said:
A part of what Dan Froomkin has to say on the LATEST misconduct of george w bush:
It's certainly hard to argue that President Clinton didn't abuse the pardon process. But Bush's pledge back in 2000 was to restore ethics to the White House -- not engage in he-did-it-too defense of his own misconduct.
And furthermore, there is an ethical chasm between Clinton's pardons -- unseemly as they were -- and Bush's decision to grant clemency to someone involved in an investigation of his own White House.
As it happens, the previous granting of clemency that is most analogous to what Bush did dates back neither to the Clinton or even the Nixon era, but to Bush's father's presidency.
In 1992, on the eve of his last Christmas in the White House, George H.W. Bush pardoned former defense secretary Caspar Weinberger and five others for their conduct related to the Iran-Contra affair, in which he himself was also loosely implicated.
Many more wise and interesting words at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/links...
It's certainly hard to argue that President Clinton didn't abuse the pardon process. But Bush's pledge back in 2000 was to restore ethics to the White House -- not engage in he-did-it-too defense of his own misconduct.
And furthermore, there is an ethical chasm between Clinton's pardons -- unseemly as they were -- and Bush's decision to grant clemency to someone involved in an investigation of his own White House.
As it happens, the previous granting of clemency that is most analogous to what Bush did dates back neither to the Clinton or even the Nixon era, but to Bush's father's presidency.
In 1992, on the eve of his last Christmas in the White House, George H.W. Bush pardoned former defense secretary Caspar Weinberger and five others for their conduct related to the Iran-Contra affair, in which he himself was also loosely implicated.
Many more wise and interesting words at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/links...
Rox said:
VT, I always appreciate hearing the view of someone who is more in the know about the financial (tax) parts of a subject. Thank you.
But that doesn't mean that I agree. >g< Respectfully, as I do with all on here when it happens.
This is not a kneejerk reaction. I've had poor insurance offered by groups, good insurance offered by employers (gov't employers, as a matter of fact) and no insurance. I was even on Medicaid for a short time, during which time I don't think I ever used it. I should have.
Does anyone know the income limits for Medicaid? At the time, with a $10,000 a year income and 1 dependent, who was allowed to continue because she's a "child", I did not qualify. Some people believe ANYBODY can get on Medicaid. WRONG! Not any adult, that's for sure. (Sorry for the rant, but I do get upset when some--not here--don't have a clue what they're talking about.
No matter whether we do a socialiazed medicine plan or what, something must be done. The number of uninsured in this country is rising. Uninsured can many times mean dead. But oh my goodness that someone might have to PAY for someone else's healthcare! As if they aren't already, even for the care of others who are insured.
It stinks, it sucks, and I applaud Michael Moore for looking into this problem.
But that doesn't mean that I agree. >g< Respectfully, as I do with all on here when it happens.
This is not a kneejerk reaction. I've had poor insurance offered by groups, good insurance offered by employers (gov't employers, as a matter of fact) and no insurance. I was even on Medicaid for a short time, during which time I don't think I ever used it. I should have.
Does anyone know the income limits for Medicaid? At the time, with a $10,000 a year income and 1 dependent, who was allowed to continue because she's a "child", I did not qualify. Some people believe ANYBODY can get on Medicaid. WRONG! Not any adult, that's for sure. (Sorry for the rant, but I do get upset when some--not here--don't have a clue what they're talking about.
No matter whether we do a socialiazed medicine plan or what, something must be done. The number of uninsured in this country is rising. Uninsured can many times mean dead. But oh my goodness that someone might have to PAY for someone else's healthcare! As if they aren't already, even for the care of others who are insured.
It stinks, it sucks, and I applaud Michael Moore for looking into this problem.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Rox, the current situation most certainly stinks and sucks. It's time it is changed. I hope you didn't take my overly-long post as a defense of the current system, as it most assuredly wasn't so intended. See, e.g., my comments on the need for a "single payer" system, supra. And all of us contribute to the costs of medical care for the uninsured at least indirectly, through the higher charges of the facility, etc., which are passed through in some measure to the insurance companies to which we pay premiums, or through allocation of tax revenues, etc.
This is a real, real issue, one which we, as a society, have ignored too long, for some perhaps out of ignorance of the problem, for others due to the pervasive nature of the lobbyists for insurers and others, and for yet others, a feeling that "it won't happen to me".
I'm not up to date on the income limits for Medicaid eligibility, but generally the same are a certain percentage of the governmentally established "poverty level".
This is a real, real issue, one which we, as a society, have ignored too long, for some perhaps out of ignorance of the problem, for others due to the pervasive nature of the lobbyists for insurers and others, and for yet others, a feeling that "it won't happen to me".
I'm not up to date on the income limits for Medicaid eligibility, but generally the same are a certain percentage of the governmentally established "poverty level".
Danny said:
Rox,
You don't hear a complaint from me. Regarding why those I know who became doctors? There first answers are to help people(generally), but money isn't an unattractive proposition to them either.
I happen to agree, in so far as basic medical coverage for all. What I do not think, is that it needs to model after anybody elses in the world.
Vaughn,
I agree with the assessment, the fall out in revenue is going to hurt, but then I stand by a minimalistic government, so identifying places of extraneous spending and places where spending can be cut is something that would certainly have to occur. Highly probable is that other consequence, higher taxes. But under a single nationalized health plan or how I described, taxes I believe are going to be unavoidable.
So either we pay for it one way, or pay for it another way. I think I'm going to have to research the issue a bit more though. I know that some of the cost of our current medical environment is related to paperwork, malpractice insurance, and research related activities that we do. I don't know all the costs.
Rox,
I may not much agree with anything Michael Moore has to say, but if it makes people think then no harm no foul. I've thought about the insurance and medical situations, and I base much of my view on my own limited experience.
I know that not everybody can get medicaid/care. It surprises me that we don't have at least basic medical coverage for all. It doesn't have to be the best insurance but at least provide coverage for emergencies and doctor visits. As I've said, I had insurance, it covered 5 doctor visits a year per person and emergencies. Not great, but something like that still would go quite a ways in addressing the need, at least I think so.
You don't hear a complaint from me. Regarding why those I know who became doctors? There first answers are to help people(generally), but money isn't an unattractive proposition to them either.
I happen to agree, in so far as basic medical coverage for all. What I do not think, is that it needs to model after anybody elses in the world.
Vaughn,
I agree with the assessment, the fall out in revenue is going to hurt, but then I stand by a minimalistic government, so identifying places of extraneous spending and places where spending can be cut is something that would certainly have to occur. Highly probable is that other consequence, higher taxes. But under a single nationalized health plan or how I described, taxes I believe are going to be unavoidable.
So either we pay for it one way, or pay for it another way. I think I'm going to have to research the issue a bit more though. I know that some of the cost of our current medical environment is related to paperwork, malpractice insurance, and research related activities that we do. I don't know all the costs.
Rox,
I may not much agree with anything Michael Moore has to say, but if it makes people think then no harm no foul. I've thought about the insurance and medical situations, and I base much of my view on my own limited experience.
I know that not everybody can get medicaid/care. It surprises me that we don't have at least basic medical coverage for all. It doesn't have to be the best insurance but at least provide coverage for emergencies and doctor visits. As I've said, I had insurance, it covered 5 doctor visits a year per person and emergencies. Not great, but something like that still would go quite a ways in addressing the need, at least I think so.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Danny, while we (the U.S.) should have basic medical coverage for all, we don't. There are a plethora of different programs across the country to try to remedy this, but the problem as I see it with darn near every one of them is that the requirements for coverage are variable (see Rox' discussion on Medicaid) due to the way the programs are financed, or the same rely on some kind of "partnership" with insurance companies. Now, insurance companies are many things, but charitable organizations they're not. While they may be willing to reduce their profit margin in return for guaranteed payments, there is a margin there that is involved in things like Healthwave (the Kansas health insurance program for those under the age of 19 whose families meet the economic criteria) which could be save if the insurance company is eliminated from the equation and the government does a direct pay as an example.
My thoughts on basic coverage would be a limited number of office visits annually for preventative care; emergency coverage, together with some form of catastrophic coverage, all as a minimum. There further exists the need for basic dental care and some form of basic vision care, the latter to help with education for those whose families cannot afford glasses, etc., the goal being to provide correction so they may do better in school.
My thoughts on basic coverage would be a limited number of office visits annually for preventative care; emergency coverage, together with some form of catastrophic coverage, all as a minimum. There further exists the need for basic dental care and some form of basic vision care, the latter to help with education for those whose families cannot afford glasses, etc., the goal being to provide correction so they may do better in school.
Danny said:
Vaughn,
That is where we are agreed, getting basic coverage for all. I just don't see replacing everything entirely as some suggest. The biggest reason in my mind is the logistics of it. Be it directly with government or through private insurance. To solve the problem of making sure all are covered without an entire overhaul of the system as it is(which I think would be too costly to do as it stands now) would be getting basic coverage as described by you(better than I, mine was incomplete it did cover dental and eyes, I just never think of them).
I also think we need a mindset change in addressing contributing factors to health issues. It is a difficult proposition to say the least. However difficult it is now, it needs to be addressed now before it gets much worse.
That is where we are agreed, getting basic coverage for all. I just don't see replacing everything entirely as some suggest. The biggest reason in my mind is the logistics of it. Be it directly with government or through private insurance. To solve the problem of making sure all are covered without an entire overhaul of the system as it is(which I think would be too costly to do as it stands now) would be getting basic coverage as described by you(better than I, mine was incomplete it did cover dental and eyes, I just never think of them).
I also think we need a mindset change in addressing contributing factors to health issues. It is a difficult proposition to say the least. However difficult it is now, it needs to be addressed now before it gets much worse.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Danny, I may be overlooking something obvious, but to me, given the current system, I see no practicable way to provide basic coverage for all without total replacement of the existing system.
Another topic: the situation in the Red Mosque in Pakistan. I fear Musharaf has no option but to take strong action against the student radicals, but to do so will threaten the existence of his government. If the forces who are supporting these students win, then I believe that Pakistan will become the next Afghanistan with reference to being a staging ground for the Taliban, al Quaeda, et al, together with Iraq after the withdrawal of the "Coalition" forces.
Another topic: the situation in the Red Mosque in Pakistan. I fear Musharaf has no option but to take strong action against the student radicals, but to do so will threaten the existence of his government. If the forces who are supporting these students win, then I believe that Pakistan will become the next Afghanistan with reference to being a staging ground for the Taliban, al Quaeda, et al, together with Iraq after the withdrawal of the "Coalition" forces.
Rox said:
It's good to see you gentlemen talking about this! Good ideas coming out. Now, if the PTB would only do the same, but what I see are closed minds. Stubborn men. >g<
Danny, back in the day when I was married and we had that good medical insurance, except for pregnancy and childbirth (mine, of course), we didn't have even 5 visits to a doc per year. And there were 6 of us! The only time we reached our deductible ($200, if I remember correctly) was when I got pregnant. We weren't running to the doctor for colds and flu and whatever.
My point? LOL I'm not sure there is one, but maybe I do tend to put some blame on the cost of healthcare on a few people--those who see a doctor at the first sneeze. There are many reasons healthcare costs are high, and that's only a small one.
Hey, I'm doing fine, insurance or no insurance, but I consider myself lucky in that respect.
Now I'm really going to ramble, but here's the way I see it. Not only are the insured paying for the uninsured, but they're also paying for others who are insured. You pay your monthly premium. It goes into something like a general fund, for lack of a better term. That money is used to pay for everybody under that particular company's umbrella. Your premiums aren't put into a little file under your name. In essence, everyone is paying for everyone's insurance now, and because of the bureaucracy and paperwork and yada yada, the price tag is outrageous.
I know both of you (Danny and VT) know this. It only takes common sense to understand, and neither of you is lacking in that in any way. But the cry and whine I hear from some about not wanting to pay for someone else's healthcare is downright laughable.
Also, I wasn't going off on either of you with my little rant before, just on things in general, so please don't think I was. I not only feel frustration for my own position--to be honest, I don't worry about it a lot--but for so many others that can no longer afford insurance and really, really, need it.
There's more, but I'll hush for now. And just think, I'll be gone most of next week, so you won't have to put up with my rants. ;)
Danny, back in the day when I was married and we had that good medical insurance, except for pregnancy and childbirth (mine, of course), we didn't have even 5 visits to a doc per year. And there were 6 of us! The only time we reached our deductible ($200, if I remember correctly) was when I got pregnant. We weren't running to the doctor for colds and flu and whatever.
My point? LOL I'm not sure there is one, but maybe I do tend to put some blame on the cost of healthcare on a few people--those who see a doctor at the first sneeze. There are many reasons healthcare costs are high, and that's only a small one.
Hey, I'm doing fine, insurance or no insurance, but I consider myself lucky in that respect.
Now I'm really going to ramble, but here's the way I see it. Not only are the insured paying for the uninsured, but they're also paying for others who are insured. You pay your monthly premium. It goes into something like a general fund, for lack of a better term. That money is used to pay for everybody under that particular company's umbrella. Your premiums aren't put into a little file under your name. In essence, everyone is paying for everyone's insurance now, and because of the bureaucracy and paperwork and yada yada, the price tag is outrageous.
I know both of you (Danny and VT) know this. It only takes common sense to understand, and neither of you is lacking in that in any way. But the cry and whine I hear from some about not wanting to pay for someone else's healthcare is downright laughable.
Also, I wasn't going off on either of you with my little rant before, just on things in general, so please don't think I was. I not only feel frustration for my own position--to be honest, I don't worry about it a lot--but for so many others that can no longer afford insurance and really, really, need it.
There's more, but I'll hush for now. And just think, I'll be gone most of next week, so you won't have to put up with my rants. ;)
Danny said:
Rox,
Discussion not a rant. I agree, something needs to be done to address the health issues we have. I just guess there are ways to address it using what we already have. No matter, how it is changed we all pay for it one way or another, and in essence as you said we are already doing that anyway.
I've seen what you've described people going in when it is not necessary. I was guilty of that when my wife and I were expecting our first child. Didn't know what to expect, so the "normal" pains had to be checked out. One of those times, we really did need to go, my wife couldn't keep anything down(liquid or otherwise) so she needed some IV fluids. But I think we could have been a bit more patient the other time we went to the emergency room.
Generally speaking though, I only go in when I can't really get out of bed. I've had pneumonia once and the only time I go in for a sniffle is when my sinuses begin to hurt, because I know that indicates sinus infection and if not treated, I'll end up in bed for a couple weeks because it spreads to my chest and lungs eventually. All kinds of fun times.
Discussion not a rant. I agree, something needs to be done to address the health issues we have. I just guess there are ways to address it using what we already have. No matter, how it is changed we all pay for it one way or another, and in essence as you said we are already doing that anyway.
I've seen what you've described people going in when it is not necessary. I was guilty of that when my wife and I were expecting our first child. Didn't know what to expect, so the "normal" pains had to be checked out. One of those times, we really did need to go, my wife couldn't keep anything down(liquid or otherwise) so she needed some IV fluids. But I think we could have been a bit more patient the other time we went to the emergency room.
Generally speaking though, I only go in when I can't really get out of bed. I've had pneumonia once and the only time I go in for a sniffle is when my sinuses begin to hurt, because I know that indicates sinus infection and if not treated, I'll end up in bed for a couple weeks because it spreads to my chest and lungs eventually. All kinds of fun times.
Rox said:
Hey, Danny, with the first pregnancy, everybody is uber careful. And if you know you have a situation that needs to be tended to at the first sign of trouble, by all means, get it done! Neither instance falls under the 'unneeded' umbrella. But I've heard people use the Oh-I-Have-Insurance excuse for some of the smallest things, and I wonder if they have a clue what they're doing to their own premiums over the long haul. In my book, they rate right up there with people who demand antibiotics for everything and don't realize they may eventually find themselves immune to them and having to take the super ones to do any good.
Yeah, yeah, my list of pet peeves. LOL
Yeah, yeah, my list of pet peeves. LOL
RD said:
Da Vinci and the Pieta? Somebody slap me! The blonde moments are coming faster and more often, and I don't think there's a cure. Maybe prayer would help? Hair dye never did.
On that note, I bid you all farewell until after the 15th. I leave in the wee hours tomorrow morning for a working vacation in Dallas. "Working" only because I'm off to a conference for "networking", more commonly known as schmoozing, and to spend time with friends, who also happen to be writers.
Have a great week, blogging friends!!
On that note, I bid you all farewell until after the 15th. I leave in the wee hours tomorrow morning for a working vacation in Dallas. "Working" only because I'm off to a conference for "networking", more commonly known as schmoozing, and to spend time with friends, who also happen to be writers.
Have a great week, blogging friends!!
lindainks55 said:
Enjoy! Even if you have to squeeze in some work it will be in a different setting with different daily responsibilities and with friends! Travel safely and we'll see you when you get back.
Vaughn Tolle said:
<http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070709/ap_on_re_mi_ea...>
The above link illustrates what, to me, is as much of a long term concern about Iraq and the entire area as just darned near anything else.
Turkey is a NATO ally; the support of the Kurds is necessary to the "coalition" so troops otherwise needed in that part of Iraq may be sent elsewhere. Can we say "between a rock and a hard place"?
The above link illustrates what, to me, is as much of a long term concern about Iraq and the entire area as just darned near anything else.
Turkey is a NATO ally; the support of the Kurds is necessary to the "coalition" so troops otherwise needed in that part of Iraq may be sent elsewhere. Can we say "between a rock and a hard place"?
lindainks55 said:
Where do you suppose Dubya has gone? Should we be concerned or happy that he is off enjoying a vacation or...?
Vaughn, That article is SCARY! I'm afraid WE THE PEOPLE are in that space between the rock and the hard place with our leaders. It's getting more crowded and uncomfortable daily.
Vaughn, That article is SCARY! I'm afraid WE THE PEOPLE are in that space between the rock and the hard place with our leaders. It's getting more crowded and uncomfortable daily.
Danny said:
Right now I'm tired. Benedryl and allergies always a great combination for letting sleep in late. However, since everyone here knew that I and my wife were expecting our second child. Thursday evening or early Friday morning she will make an appearance(unless it happens sooner). We'll be getting induced at that time. I'm excited.
Anyway I'm off in the meantime.
Anyway I'm off in the meantime.
lindainks55 said:
If you have time please let us know when your daughter is born, Danny.
Too bad about your allergies. I've heard many who suffer are worse this wet year. Doesn't help to know you aren't alone, does it?!
Too bad about your allergies. I've heard many who suffer are worse this wet year. Doesn't help to know you aren't alone, does it?!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Danny, I feel your pain. As an allergy sufferer myself, this is a very robust year for allergies. Have you thought of using other OTC antihistamines for symptom relief? The "generic" Claritin works quite well for me, without the drowsiness.
And keep us posted on your daughter. With our younger, she decided to come on Sunday morning, with the inducing scheduled for Monday.
And keep us posted on your daughter. With our younger, she decided to come on Sunday morning, with the inducing scheduled for Monday.
Vaughn Tolle said:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/10/us.iraq/ind...
For those who are brighter than I, please explain how the "benchmarks" for the Iraqi government to meet/show progress towards meeting have anything whatsoever to do with the "surge", etc. I am confused, thus I humbly beseech those who are able to explain this to me.
For those who are brighter than I, please explain how the "benchmarks" for the Iraqi government to meet/show progress towards meeting have anything whatsoever to do with the "surge", etc. I am confused, thus I humbly beseech those who are able to explain this to me.
lindainks55 said:
You're asking for someone to make sense of a bush plan? Ah, come on! You are MUCH smarter than that!
Bush broke it and has no idea how to fix it. I think he would have preferred delaying until the whole mess was the problem of the next president. After the last election I think he realized that plan was probably not possible.
Now I think his plan is to force the majority Democratic Congress (barely) to bring the troops home in whatever way and then spend the balance of his time in office pointing out this wouldn't have happened, or this would have happened IF ONLY...
And, this may also be a way to salvage some of the defectors from his party based on his poor performance. I absolutely think this administration are that crooked and that evil and that dishonorable.
Bush broke it and has no idea how to fix it. I think he would have preferred delaying until the whole mess was the problem of the next president. After the last election I think he realized that plan was probably not possible.
Now I think his plan is to force the majority Democratic Congress (barely) to bring the troops home in whatever way and then spend the balance of his time in office pointing out this wouldn't have happened, or this would have happened IF ONLY...
And, this may also be a way to salvage some of the defectors from his party based on his poor performance. I absolutely think this administration are that crooked and that evil and that dishonorable.
Gster said:
"Ya see, VT, that's what I'll call ya- a benchmark is that thingie you put into a book with real words, not pictures; and a surge is what your car does just before it runs out of gas! Does that crucify it for ya?" The Prez
lindainks55 said:
We should have known we could count on Gary! I've got it now and it seems easy. Let's just all go to the ranch and cut brush and drink beer since the world's problems are handled.
Danny said:
Linda,
Well.. I suffer from allergies something bad. I'm used to it. I'll keep everybody informed about when my daughter arrives.
VT,
Claritin and the generics of it have never worked for me. The only non-drowsy allergy medicine that has ever worked for me is Allegra. However, I don't like to use Allegra as I tend to get a little hyper when using it. So for over the counter ones, I generally just take them a little bit before bed and hope for the best the rest of the day.
In regards to the article:
I read the article. If going strictly on the article I couldn't explain it, so I'll interject my own thoughts here. Likely, the surge attempts to help quell rebellions. That is a plus. In doing so and assuming some level of success, it gives differing governmental factions in the Iraqi government less ammunition for pushing their own agendas(read as, well group A attacked us we aren't going to talk to them).
If they have less ammunition for pushing selfish agendas, then they can begin to work on and address their actual issues and functioning as a government. So the surge can affect government in some respects. Take away rhetoric such as, well they attacked us first. So the surge to be successful needs to be successful in lessening the sectarian violence so as to take away emotional talking points and let the government work on the real issues, like how do we live together when we have very fundamental differences.
My two cents. I don't know that answers the question in full though, or provides only a simple answer to a very complex issue.
Well.. I suffer from allergies something bad. I'm used to it. I'll keep everybody informed about when my daughter arrives.
VT,
Claritin and the generics of it have never worked for me. The only non-drowsy allergy medicine that has ever worked for me is Allegra. However, I don't like to use Allegra as I tend to get a little hyper when using it. So for over the counter ones, I generally just take them a little bit before bed and hope for the best the rest of the day.
In regards to the article:
I read the article. If going strictly on the article I couldn't explain it, so I'll interject my own thoughts here. Likely, the surge attempts to help quell rebellions. That is a plus. In doing so and assuming some level of success, it gives differing governmental factions in the Iraqi government less ammunition for pushing their own agendas(read as, well group A attacked us we aren't going to talk to them).
If they have less ammunition for pushing selfish agendas, then they can begin to work on and address their actual issues and functioning as a government. So the surge can affect government in some respects. Take away rhetoric such as, well they attacked us first. So the surge to be successful needs to be successful in lessening the sectarian violence so as to take away emotional talking points and let the government work on the real issues, like how do we live together when we have very fundamental differences.
My two cents. I don't know that answers the question in full though, or provides only a simple answer to a very complex issue.
Gster said:
Danny - I don't disput your thoughts, but the biggest impediment is as I understand it, the gomverning body in Baghdad doesn't meet. The can't get a quorum together , and those that show up can't agree on anything. The end result, is that after these years, virtually nothing has been accomplished whether large complex problems or those of the smaller variey. As it stands, the process is stagnant, and we're paying the bills and doing the fighting/dying for 12 billion/month!
Danny said:
Gster,
Strangely enough I agree. I've not seen the Iraqi government take seriously that which they are charged with doing(governing). So I think we need to be putting much more pressure on the Iraqi government. As in, start working to solve your problems, because if the surge isn't shown to be "making progress" by September(perhaps something being shown sooner), we're going to start leaving. Take that with a grain of salt, I've pretty much tuned out the war in Iraq.
However, I'm interested in General Petraeus' report. So I'm willing to wait until September, but I'd suspect to see something positive now being less than two months away from that particular deadline, if nothing positive is happening then I wouldn't expect to see a miraculous turn around in September either. However, the Iraqi government does need to get its act together quickly and start working through problems, even if just starting small. Learn to comprise with each other for goodness sake.
Strangely enough I agree. I've not seen the Iraqi government take seriously that which they are charged with doing(governing). So I think we need to be putting much more pressure on the Iraqi government. As in, start working to solve your problems, because if the surge isn't shown to be "making progress" by September(perhaps something being shown sooner), we're going to start leaving. Take that with a grain of salt, I've pretty much tuned out the war in Iraq.
However, I'm interested in General Petraeus' report. So I'm willing to wait until September, but I'd suspect to see something positive now being less than two months away from that particular deadline, if nothing positive is happening then I wouldn't expect to see a miraculous turn around in September either. However, the Iraqi government does need to get its act together quickly and start working through problems, even if just starting small. Learn to comprise with each other for goodness sake.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Danny, thank you for your thoughtful response to a rather inane and a bit sarcastic question I posted much earlier. I, too, am interested in General Petraeus' report. Based upon his interview with a BBC reporter I heard early this morning (couldn't sleep due to my allergies raising a fuss), the report might well be a bit like this: "We're making some progress, it's going to take some more time, the politicians in Iraq aren't doing what they should, but I think they will". I hope I'm wrong.
Bottom line for me: the al-Malaki government knows it continues to exist solely due to the presence of the (primarily) U.S. forces in Iraq. Any proposed withdrawal, redeployment, (your favorite term here) of these forces constitutes a real threat to its continued health, and opportunities for corruption, whatever. Thus, their reasoning might go, the longer we do nothing in a constructive way to try to resolve the political issues, the longer these forces will remain, and the longer we can have power (and line our pockets). Thus, to me, the time for "benchmarks" is over; it's time for deadlines.
I further believe that notwithstanding whether the withdrawal of U.S. forces begins in September, 2007; or doesn't happen until September, 2017, there is going to be a full-fledged civil war in Iraq, not limited merely to the environs surrounding Baghdad as it appears to me to be the present case. I suggest that the longer the "occupation", the more bloody the eventual civil war.
It seems to me that whatever benefits the surge was bringing by seeming to reduce the sectarian violence there, the violence of the last two days in Baghdad belies any real success thereof. Coupling this with some activities in other parts of Iraq, it seems to me that on the whole, there has been little positive gained. Senator McCain would tell me that I need to be a bit more patient, to give time for this to work. Senator, my patience has reached its limit. Either do something to rid Iraq of the dunderheads now in power or start getting out. I do not believe any withdrawal can, in any rational way, be sudden. The logistics dictate this, irrespective of any other issues.
Listening a minute to "Morning Joe" on MSNBC this a.m., I was struck by Scarborough's seeming incredulity over the following: the U.S. is arming Shia to fight Shia (government vs. militias); the U.S. is arming Sunni to fight Sunni (tribal leaders who, for their own reasons, are going after al Quaeda); the U.S., in one situation he gave concerning the Shia militias, is arming Sunni to fight Shia. This made no sense to him, and I submit, it makes no sense to anyone else. He said something about the Kurds as well, but it didn't stick in my pre-coffee morning fog. BTW, when I use the word "arming", this includes "training".
Thus, the question initially raised. Special thanks to Linda and Gary for their insightful comments as well.
Bottom line for me: the al-Malaki government knows it continues to exist solely due to the presence of the (primarily) U.S. forces in Iraq. Any proposed withdrawal, redeployment, (your favorite term here) of these forces constitutes a real threat to its continued health, and opportunities for corruption, whatever. Thus, their reasoning might go, the longer we do nothing in a constructive way to try to resolve the political issues, the longer these forces will remain, and the longer we can have power (and line our pockets). Thus, to me, the time for "benchmarks" is over; it's time for deadlines.
I further believe that notwithstanding whether the withdrawal of U.S. forces begins in September, 2007; or doesn't happen until September, 2017, there is going to be a full-fledged civil war in Iraq, not limited merely to the environs surrounding Baghdad as it appears to me to be the present case. I suggest that the longer the "occupation", the more bloody the eventual civil war.
It seems to me that whatever benefits the surge was bringing by seeming to reduce the sectarian violence there, the violence of the last two days in Baghdad belies any real success thereof. Coupling this with some activities in other parts of Iraq, it seems to me that on the whole, there has been little positive gained. Senator McCain would tell me that I need to be a bit more patient, to give time for this to work. Senator, my patience has reached its limit. Either do something to rid Iraq of the dunderheads now in power or start getting out. I do not believe any withdrawal can, in any rational way, be sudden. The logistics dictate this, irrespective of any other issues.
Listening a minute to "Morning Joe" on MSNBC this a.m., I was struck by Scarborough's seeming incredulity over the following: the U.S. is arming Shia to fight Shia (government vs. militias); the U.S. is arming Sunni to fight Sunni (tribal leaders who, for their own reasons, are going after al Quaeda); the U.S., in one situation he gave concerning the Shia militias, is arming Sunni to fight Shia. This made no sense to him, and I submit, it makes no sense to anyone else. He said something about the Kurds as well, but it didn't stick in my pre-coffee morning fog. BTW, when I use the word "arming", this includes "training".
Thus, the question initially raised. Special thanks to Linda and Gary for their insightful comments as well.
Danny said:
Vaughn,
You know the interesting thing about that is, I think the Iraqi government doesn't feel the pressure to have to make progress. At the same time, I think there is a legitimate argument in that, these different religious factions, groups of people, or whatever are trying to kill each other does in some way prevent their government from functioning properly. How much that plays in the inaction of their government I don't know, it could well be that their government is just as you said, lining their pockets and bidding their time, and when we leave they(Iraqi government) leave. In that sense, I think you are right and thus nothing we do will overcome that, short of leaving. Withdrawing troops may get them to wake up and smell the coffee that if you really care about your country then start playing ball and get some problems solved.
However, these government officials of Iraq need to recognize they are all in this country together. Not addressing the needs of the country as a whole does nothing to move their country forward. I'm not saying that means overnight they need to have equality for all and suddenly become utopia, realistically that isn't going to happen. What they need to do, is start making legitimate decisions and attempts to understanding the differences of what each group wants.
Surprisingly, I'm not trying to defend us staying or leaving. I think I realize what needs to happen(their government starts working), and if it happening, then I think because we did cause the current situation we should help to see it through to resolution, assuming that their government is really making true progress and showing willingness to compromise and work together and really solve their problems. I think that if this current plan is showing true promise and true progress toward that end, then ok lets get it done. If it isn't, then lets look at other options.
You know the interesting thing about that is, I think the Iraqi government doesn't feel the pressure to have to make progress. At the same time, I think there is a legitimate argument in that, these different religious factions, groups of people, or whatever are trying to kill each other does in some way prevent their government from functioning properly. How much that plays in the inaction of their government I don't know, it could well be that their government is just as you said, lining their pockets and bidding their time, and when we leave they(Iraqi government) leave. In that sense, I think you are right and thus nothing we do will overcome that, short of leaving. Withdrawing troops may get them to wake up and smell the coffee that if you really care about your country then start playing ball and get some problems solved.
However, these government officials of Iraq need to recognize they are all in this country together. Not addressing the needs of the country as a whole does nothing to move their country forward. I'm not saying that means overnight they need to have equality for all and suddenly become utopia, realistically that isn't going to happen. What they need to do, is start making legitimate decisions and attempts to understanding the differences of what each group wants.
Surprisingly, I'm not trying to defend us staying or leaving. I think I realize what needs to happen(their government starts working), and if it happening, then I think because we did cause the current situation we should help to see it through to resolution, assuming that their government is really making true progress and showing willingness to compromise and work together and really solve their problems. I think that if this current plan is showing true promise and true progress toward that end, then ok lets get it done. If it isn't, then lets look at other options.
lindainks55 said:
For how long? How much patience do we need until they get serious about their own country? And, how long do Americans wait until our elected representatives either tell us truthfully why we can't bring the troops home or do as the majority are asking and get them back here sooner rather than later. If they have information I don't and shouldn't have at least tell me that. This is way too serious to play politics with! If our country and our elected representatives have to be so divisive that there HAS to be a fall guy how in the world do we expect officials in Iraq to do a better job? I am so sick of politics and politicians. Give us some straight talk! Pull together and do what is right, not what makes your party more electable!
Danny said:
Linda,
I agree with you. It's frustrating because how much do we not know? Are we pushing their government hard enough or too hard? Alot of questions, that I think were we the ones in power that we'd have the answers.
However, the for how long question, September. The only reason, because I want to see the Petreaus report and see if there was any progress at all. But I'd like to have more information, or at least be told so far as information is said that isn't detrimental to operations taking place.
Now if by September there isn't demonstrated progress then I think we need to start withdrawing and say, look we gave Iraq x number of years to get their act together and start working to solve their governmental problems, and we tried to help them as much as we could, but hey, nothing is happening, so we are going to start leaving. And maybe leaving will be that shove the Iraqi government needs to get it into gear.
I agree with you. It's frustrating because how much do we not know? Are we pushing their government hard enough or too hard? Alot of questions, that I think were we the ones in power that we'd have the answers.
However, the for how long question, September. The only reason, because I want to see the Petreaus report and see if there was any progress at all. But I'd like to have more information, or at least be told so far as information is said that isn't detrimental to operations taking place.
Now if by September there isn't demonstrated progress then I think we need to start withdrawing and say, look we gave Iraq x number of years to get their act together and start working to solve their governmental problems, and we tried to help them as much as we could, but hey, nothing is happening, so we are going to start leaving. And maybe leaving will be that shove the Iraqi government needs to get it into gear.
Gster said:
I think the fundamental fallacy regarding ending this war is the fact that Iraq was essentially assembled years ago by the West. It was held together these many years by tyranical use of force. When this force (Saddam) is removed, it is no wonder it starts to fragment- it was never "naturally" assembled in the first place. Viewing the long history of the area and it's constant turmoil, is it really any wonder why the government there now can't perform at any level. The only way to prevent an implosion after we depart is to install a new tyrant, and the cycle resumes! Unless this "coutry" is allowed to partition itself along religious sect lines, there is absolutely no hope for the region, IMHO.
(PS- Where the hell is my spell checker?)
(PS- Where the hell is my spell checker?)
Danny said:
Gster,
You know, what you state is about three countries, states, or whatever other partition name can be come up with is kind of what I think needs to happen. I wonder what the plausibility of that would be?
You know, what you state is about three countries, states, or whatever other partition name can be come up with is kind of what I think needs to happen. I wonder what the plausibility of that would be?
Gster said:
Danny - I can see no oeher way. The Kurds seem to have their act together, with an oil revenue source, and if the Shia and Sunnis can agree on their territories and revenue sources, it may work. Otherwise, some external force will be necessary , probably forever, to hold the country together.
Bush's delusion is that he can't see beyond a military solution; he has no awareness of the necessity of a politcal solution being the true crux of the problem.
Bush's delusion is that he can't see beyond a military solution; he has no awareness of the necessity of a politcal solution being the true crux of the problem.
lindainks55 said:
He doesn't have any diplomatic skills or respect for same AND a political solution wouldn't have lined nearly as many pockets. No-bid contracts wouldn't have been needed, buying offices and protections... He really wanted to own the oil but I think if it were possible for him to be honest he would admit it hasn't worked out poorly for him and his.
Danny said:
Gster,
Military alone isn't going to solve most problems, I'm pretty certain that is a true statement. I think we both agree that there needs to be political work done. If having our military there enables that work to get done, ok then keep it there but keep us informed of the progress being made or lack thereof. I know all of us are smart enough to understand it. If we aren't seeing our military enabling their political process to work, then other options need to be considered(withdrawing or breaking the country into three(or more maybe?) countries or states). As I've stated, I'm interested in the upcoming report by General Petraeus.
Military alone isn't going to solve most problems, I'm pretty certain that is a true statement. I think we both agree that there needs to be political work done. If having our military there enables that work to get done, ok then keep it there but keep us informed of the progress being made or lack thereof. I know all of us are smart enough to understand it. If we aren't seeing our military enabling their political process to work, then other options need to be considered(withdrawing or breaking the country into three(or more maybe?) countries or states). As I've stated, I'm interested in the upcoming report by General Petraeus.
Gster said:
Danny- I too am interested in what the General says, but I really wonder what he will be allowed to say. I doubt if his words will prevail- look how the various administations have muzzed the various Surgeon Generals, as reported yesterday. Do you really think Bush will allow free speech in this instance?
By the way, did you notice Bush is now refering to the surge as Petaeus's strategy, and not the CIC's?
I'm starting to smell something!
By the way, did you notice Bush is now refering to the surge as Petaeus's strategy, and not the CIC's?
I'm starting to smell something!
lindainks55 said:
A not-too-intensive study of General Petraeus will show you why he was selected for this position. He has a history of saying what he is told to say.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Linda, I'm wondering a bit about your post here. It well may be true, but considering the issue at hand, in his BBC interview about which I posted yesterday, General Petraeus appears to have strayed a bit from his path. Paraphrasing (from memory) his response to a question, he said that while the surge seems to be showing some limited initial success, there has not been any resolution of the political issues necessary for a long-term resolution of the issues by the Iraqi government, which have to happen.
Wonder what his CIC thinks of this? From Gster's post, it would appear that GWB might not approve.
Wonder what his CIC thinks of this? From Gster's post, it would appear that GWB might not approve.
Gster said:
I'm impressed by both Petraeus himself , and his bona fides. Most people don't know that at the General Officer level , one is more a politician than a military man. I don't think there is a chance in hell he will speak his mind of it doesn't follow Bushthink, at least not while he's still in uniform!
If he does, I expect to see a new 4 star greeter at Wally world! Remember Shinseki (sic)?
If he does, I expect to see a new 4 star greeter at Wally world! Remember Shinseki (sic)?
lindainks55 said:
I WAS WRONG AGAIN! I think my memories of saying what he was told to say apply to Casey, whom Petraeus replaced. But at this point I'm not sure who my memories apply to since I'm all wrong. I went looking for links and can't find any. I'm sorry! I was wrong again, and shouldn't have posted what I did in my 11:27 a.m. post.
Sorry, friends and fellow bloggers. I'll try to be more careful about what I post. But correct me when I goof up (could be a full-time job you know!).
Sorry, friends and fellow bloggers. I'll try to be more careful about what I post. But correct me when I goof up (could be a full-time job you know!).
Vaughn Tolle said:
Gster, the higher ranking the General Officer, the greater the politician in my experience.
Dave Shuck said:
On a totally unrelated note.... what did you guys do to WSClark??? :)
http://wsclark.instantspot.com/blog/index.cfm/2007...
http://wsclark.instantspot.com/blog/index.cfm/2007...
Gster said:
Vaughn- Regarding General Officers- you've got that right! I think it first rears its ugly head when O-3s try to make Field Grade rank, its all down hill after that.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Gster, I believe you're quite correct on that. Plus, the jockeying to align with the "right" General starts no later than at O-3, as they contemplate the necessary actions for promotion to field grade.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Gster, re: your 7;57 am post. What browser are you using? I've a spell checker activated in Firefox which does its thing with great regularity, helping me to avoid too many misspellings, but is of little assistance when a correctly spelled word is misused.
Gster said:
Vaughn- I'm using windows here at work and after my PC crashed last week, I have a new one and haven't gotten around to resetting the spell checker. I just fixed it. Thanks
Gary
Gary
Vaughn Tolle said:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/11/al.qaeda.report/i...
So, we are told that we need to fight them "over there" so we don't have to fight them "here". Like Secretary Chertoff, I've a gut feeling. Mine is that the linked report indicates al Qaeda has strengthened enough to fight us both "over there" and "here".
So, we are told that we need to fight them "over there" so we don't have to fight them "here". Like Secretary Chertoff, I've a gut feeling. Mine is that the linked report indicates al Qaeda has strengthened enough to fight us both "over there" and "here".
lindainks55 said:
From the git-go of bush's war of choice he said it was a different kind of war, etc. Has there been any different approach? Seems the boots-on-the-ground is the traditional way of fighting. So he says it is a non-traditional war and then proceeds with same-o-same-o? The only thing I've seen change are the goal posts being moved each time he needs a delay and while wasting lives and resources our world has become much more dangerous.
Danny said:
Vaughn,
Well, that is certainly what we'd hope. Fight our enemy as far away from us as possible. However, it has been proven that they are able to strike us here. So the question becomes, does our military there prevent the enemy from coming here?
I'd argue probably not entirely, so we need to spend money here to beef up capabilities of local, state, and federal law enforcement as these will be the primary defense here. However, I then could see the argument, but we can't do that very well because Iraq is costing us, I'm not sure of the figures, x amount of dollars per year.
So then the next question ends up being, is the balance of a war over there vs spending for homeland defense/security correct? IE, should all of our troops come home or should some of them stay or should all of them stay?
I'd think that if we had all the information, most might say some need to stay, with some votes for all coming home or staying.
Linda,
Most militaries(spelling?) were probably never trained for urban style combat. It is new "territory" thus new tactics probably apply. Thus, if we aren't adjusting properly, then I'd agree it is the same-o-same-o.
Well, that is certainly what we'd hope. Fight our enemy as far away from us as possible. However, it has been proven that they are able to strike us here. So the question becomes, does our military there prevent the enemy from coming here?
I'd argue probably not entirely, so we need to spend money here to beef up capabilities of local, state, and federal law enforcement as these will be the primary defense here. However, I then could see the argument, but we can't do that very well because Iraq is costing us, I'm not sure of the figures, x amount of dollars per year.
So then the next question ends up being, is the balance of a war over there vs spending for homeland defense/security correct? IE, should all of our troops come home or should some of them stay or should all of them stay?
I'd think that if we had all the information, most might say some need to stay, with some votes for all coming home or staying.
Linda,
Most militaries(spelling?) were probably never trained for urban style combat. It is new "territory" thus new tactics probably apply. Thus, if we aren't adjusting properly, then I'd agree it is the same-o-same-o.
Danny said:
I suppose I should clarify, war over there, war where we are chasing down true terrorists. Be it small operations, or large ones.
Gster said:
Danny- I retired from the National Guard 2 years ago, and prior to that there was a emphasis on MOUT traing ( Military Operation in Urban Terrain). It is the most dangerous thing ground forces can do, and we were told that a 50% casulty rate was expected. We used to go to very elaborate sites set up to resemble a city environment, and even though it wasn't necessarily real, it was very stressful. No thanks!
Danny said:
Gster,
Thank you. I don't blame you not wanting to do it. Shoot to be honest, I don't know of many that would want to be put into that situation. I guess what I was saying, is that if we weren't doing that training then we probably aren't fighting the "right style" of war. Not saying that means because we are doing that training we should or should not be there though.
I have a number of friends in the National Guard also. One is getting deployed over to Kosovo here shortly. I never thought to ask if MOUT training had been done. I appreciate listening to what those who have served have gone through. It really brings home a new perspective and thought on the subject.
Thank you. I don't blame you not wanting to do it. Shoot to be honest, I don't know of many that would want to be put into that situation. I guess what I was saying, is that if we weren't doing that training then we probably aren't fighting the "right style" of war. Not saying that means because we are doing that training we should or should not be there though.
I have a number of friends in the National Guard also. One is getting deployed over to Kosovo here shortly. I never thought to ask if MOUT training had been done. I appreciate listening to what those who have served have gone through. It really brings home a new perspective and thought on the subject.
Gster said:
Danny- MOUT is really SWAT based with elaborate and very specfic actions to insure success (survival). We used to go to a Fort in Oklahoma with a small city of houses and multi-storied buiding with tunnels everywhere. Sometimes your mission was to take the city, sometimes to defend it. This went on around the clock, and often without Night Optical Devices (NODs). It was so realistic and intense that you really got into it. After sneaking around and trying to quiet, only to have someone cut loose with a weapon in the dark near you is very intense. I usually could jump at least 8 feet straight up without too much trouble!
We did that type training in Wichita in a building that was torn down near Douglas and Hillside. This is one reason the casulties in Iraq have been so low with respect to non-IDT encounters- it is life-saving training. When you are done, you're dead tired , it's very consuming stuff.
End of sermon!
We did that type training in Wichita in a building that was torn down near Douglas and Hillside. This is one reason the casulties in Iraq have been so low with respect to non-IDT encounters- it is life-saving training. When you are done, you're dead tired , it's very consuming stuff.
End of sermon!
lindainks55 said:
Danny, do we have that baby girl yet? Isn't this the night? Waiting, trying to be patient...
Danny said:
Linda and all,
I uploaded a picture to my galleries so those interested can see my daughter. She was born 12:50 am 7/13/07 weighing 7lbs 2oz and is 19 5/8 inches.
However, much to my dismay, I'm apparently not capable of making the image display on my blogsite. So perhaps Dave can run me through the process. I've created the gallery, uploaded the image to it, but no luck in making it appear.
So, I may change my profile picture if it comes down to it.
I uploaded a picture to my galleries so those interested can see my daughter. She was born 12:50 am 7/13/07 weighing 7lbs 2oz and is 19 5/8 inches.
However, much to my dismay, I'm apparently not capable of making the image display on my blogsite. So perhaps Dave can run me through the process. I've created the gallery, uploaded the image to it, but no luck in making it appear.
So, I may change my profile picture if it comes down to it.
Dave Shuck said:
I see her! Congrats Danny. Glad to hear about your addition.
http://turelido.instantspot.com/index.cfm/event/ga...
Alternatively, here is a direct link to the picture:
http://turelido.instantspot.com/userfiles/031907/8...
http://turelido.instantspot.com/index.cfm/event/ga...
Alternatively, here is a direct link to the picture:
http://turelido.instantspot.com/userfiles/031907/8...
Danny said:
Dave,
Thanks. I wonder why I'm not seeing it. Maybe need to close the browser and try, force it not to cache the data.
Thanks. I wonder why I'm not seeing it. Maybe need to close the browser and try, force it not to cache the data.
lindainks55 said:
She is beautiful and looks perfectly healthy. Congratulations! Now rest, you've much ahead of you.
Gster said:
Congrats Danny, and Mrs Danny.
Many years ago when my daughter was born on Dec 20th, my mother-in-law, who didn't like me, asked what we were going to name the child. I said Deduction, and things were never quite the same- go figure.
Many years ago when my daughter was born on Dec 20th, my mother-in-law, who didn't like me, asked what we were going to name the child. I said Deduction, and things were never quite the same- go figure.
lindainks55 said:
Gary, you are such a hoot! My Mother's birthday is December 20th. I hope Deduction has had someone make her special day very special instead of squeezing it in with the holiday nearby. I think Mother had several birthdays when we didn't slow down enough to honor that day because we were busy preparing for a few days later. In more recent years we've tried to make up for those years!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Gster, the child's name should have been Exemption! Shame on you and Mrs. Gster!!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Danny, may you and your good wife be blessed with the good fortune we had with both our girls. No less than four hours uninterrupted sleep right out of the hospital, then ever increasing minutes, then hours of uninterrupted sleep beginning at about a week out. No colic, etc. Just healthy, a bit larger than average (the elder) and somewhat more large than average (the younger) who could "eat" a bit more at each sitting, thereby enabling them to sleep longer before the notorious hunger pangs hit. Try not to dislike me too much if this doesn't occur for you. ;-)
Gster said:
Vaughn- Yes, you're right.
I always kidded my daughter about being the $10 model because when she was born, I had a $10 Blue Cross deductible. She was born with the proper sense of humor and saw the logic.
I always kidded my daughter about being the $10 model because when she was born, I had a $10 Blue Cross deductible. She was born with the proper sense of humor and saw the logic.
Danny said:
All,
Thank you for the words of encouragement. If Savannah(that is her name) takes after her sister then until she hits about one and a half years old it shouldn't be so bad. LOL :D
Grandma is visiting with her daughter and granddaughter right now, so I get to stay at home with my neurotic dog. :D He suffers from one nasty case of separation anxiety. So if someone isn't home with him 24x7 well my couch ends up becoming doggy chew toy.
Thank you for the words of encouragement. If Savannah(that is her name) takes after her sister then until she hits about one and a half years old it shouldn't be so bad. LOL :D
Grandma is visiting with her daughter and granddaughter right now, so I get to stay at home with my neurotic dog. :D He suffers from one nasty case of separation anxiety. So if someone isn't home with him 24x7 well my couch ends up becoming doggy chew toy.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Yep, Danny, that's what we had, too; the "terrible one and one-halves" rather than the "terrible twos".
Danny said:
Iraq PM: Country can manage without U.S.
By BASSEM MROUE
Associated Press Writer
Given, what al-Maliki had to say in the AP article(todays Eagle had it), I guess it is time to certainly come on home now.
By BASSEM MROUE
Associated Press Writer
Given, what al-Maliki had to say in the AP article(todays Eagle had it), I guess it is time to certainly come on home now.
Danny said:
Understand, I was serious when saying that also. If the Iraqi's believe they are capable of doing this without our help, then I think it may be time to leave and work on exiting Iraq.
lindainks55 said:
We could give the money to fund the jobs filled by their own people to rebuild all that this war has blown up. At least we would be saving lives and contributing toward fixing what we broke. If their people were working to improve their own country how far would that go toward greater peace?
Rox said:
Hi All! And congratulations and best wishes to Danny and family!!!!! I love the name!!
Yes, I'm back and very behind on news, so I'll have to do some catching up. Watching CNN on a screen with sound off at the ECR (Executive Conference Room aka the lobby bar) didn't keep me very updated. Oh, and one drink was all I had...that time...and it was a doozy! >g<
Catch you all tomorrow!!
Yes, I'm back and very behind on news, so I'll have to do some catching up. Watching CNN on a screen with sound off at the ECR (Executive Conference Room aka the lobby bar) didn't keep me very updated. Oh, and one drink was all I had...that time...and it was a doozy! >g<
Catch you all tomorrow!!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Danny, did you see where al Maliki has attempted to backtrack on his comments? No surprise there to me, as I was waiting for the truth to catch up with his utterances.
Rox, glad to see you got back in one piece.
Rox, glad to see you got back in one piece.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Linda, the question you pose presumes some form of national identity, which I believe is lacking among the citizens of Iraq. While I truly believe there are some that see themselves Iraqis first, then Sunni, Shia, or Kurd, I have concluded those are a minority of the citizenry. Thus, should the funds be spent as you suggest, there would be immediate discord arising from any perceived disparate treatment, e.g., the Kurds are receiving more money than we Sunni.
Listening to some recorded comments of Senator Brownback, he gets it in this area with his thoughts of a soft sectioning of Iraq into the three major groups. There apparently is internal migration of the Iraqi people (who aren't trying to get out) to make this a de facto reality. As our good senator points out, this approach has worked in the Bosnian region. It sure seems worth a try to me. Now, once the Iraqi parliament has its August recess, maybe they can pay attention to some of the issues which could make this a reality, e.g., division of oil revenues, amendment to the constitution to better reflect the various parties and their ability to be represented, etc.
Listening to some recorded comments of Senator Brownback, he gets it in this area with his thoughts of a soft sectioning of Iraq into the three major groups. There apparently is internal migration of the Iraqi people (who aren't trying to get out) to make this a de facto reality. As our good senator points out, this approach has worked in the Bosnian region. It sure seems worth a try to me. Now, once the Iraqi parliament has its August recess, maybe they can pay attention to some of the issues which could make this a reality, e.g., division of oil revenues, amendment to the constitution to better reflect the various parties and their ability to be represented, etc.
lindainks55 said:
You are right I'm sure. There may have been a time when this was possible but we're long past that time. Today Iraq isn't what it was before bush's war sent the Iraqis with the means fleeing their country and the extremists from across the Middle East hurrying to get there. The past nearly six years of war / training angry men has changed much and little of it is a positive change.
Why would the Iraqi Parliament want to give up their positions of power, money, and influence to a solution?
Why would the Iraqi Parliament want to give up their positions of power, money, and influence to a solution?
Vaughn Tolle said:
Linda, I submit that it's not all the members of the Parliament who share those concerns, given the boycotting of sessions, etc., to the point where reaching a quorum is not attainable. I believe that the concerns lie primarily with al Maliki and members of his party/government. Thus, the quick backtrack when I'm sure someone pointed out that his existence would likely be curtailed quickly if the U.S. followed his suggestion.
As I've oft posted, it really doesn't matter how long the U.S. stays. The end result will be that which would happen if the U.S. withdraws now, namely intense violence, a civil war that will engulf the entire country (the borders of which, as has been stated many times are artificial, drawn by the former colonial powers), and the potential for a spill over into other countries in the area. Thus, why waste more lives and money? It's up to the Iraqis to settle this themselves, and the longer the U.S. is there, the later it will be before it gets settled.
If it was not so tragic, I would be amused by those who are posting on other blogs the "things the MSM doesn't report", citing the change of sides of the Sunni warlords. I see these as temporary changes, that is, the warlords change sides because al Qaeda has impinged upon the power of these folks, so let's get rid of them by assisting the U.S. Once al Qaeda is defeated (or at least under some control not threatening to the warlords), they will change allegiances again to oust the U.S. troops from their areas, as the U.S. will then be seen as the greatest threat to their historical power. And the beat goes on....
As I've oft posted, it really doesn't matter how long the U.S. stays. The end result will be that which would happen if the U.S. withdraws now, namely intense violence, a civil war that will engulf the entire country (the borders of which, as has been stated many times are artificial, drawn by the former colonial powers), and the potential for a spill over into other countries in the area. Thus, why waste more lives and money? It's up to the Iraqis to settle this themselves, and the longer the U.S. is there, the later it will be before it gets settled.
If it was not so tragic, I would be amused by those who are posting on other blogs the "things the MSM doesn't report", citing the change of sides of the Sunni warlords. I see these as temporary changes, that is, the warlords change sides because al Qaeda has impinged upon the power of these folks, so let's get rid of them by assisting the U.S. Once al Qaeda is defeated (or at least under some control not threatening to the warlords), they will change allegiances again to oust the U.S. troops from their areas, as the U.S. will then be seen as the greatest threat to their historical power. And the beat goes on....
Vaughn Tolle said:
In case I didn't make it clear, I believe that al Maliki and his henchmen are "dead men walking", with the continuation of their lives totally dependent upon the presence of the U.S., oops, that should be coalition, troops in Baghdad in particular and in the rest of Iraq in general.
Rox said:
Question:
The current Iraqi Parliament was put in power by a vote of the people. Or at least that's what we were led to believe. Shoot, I question everything our Admin is involved in. Does anyone know if said Parliament included future elections? There's not a whole lot we know about their Constitution, and I just wondered if anything about the future was addressed. Anybody know?
The current Iraqi Parliament was put in power by a vote of the people. Or at least that's what we were led to believe. Shoot, I question everything our Admin is involved in. Does anyone know if said Parliament included future elections? There's not a whole lot we know about their Constitution, and I just wondered if anything about the future was addressed. Anybody know?
Vaughn Tolle said:
Rox, I need to employ the services of the Google before I say too much, but IIRC, there is to be another election in 2010, if not before. One of the amendments to said constitution that is to be considered (see "benchmarks") is a way to ensure greater participation by the non-Shia in the government before the next election. Can anyone see the obvious conflict here, i.e., asking the sitting parliament to amend the constitution in a way to put their continuing service at risk? Again, this goes back to the national identity "piece" (to quote the late and unlamented Larry Vaughn) on which I pontificated earlier.
Gster said:
No matter how we get "there", leaving Iraq is going to be no small feat. I heard over the weekend that it takes about a month to move a Brigade sized unit, and there are currently either 20 or 30 there now. It's going to be very messy!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Gster, I've heard a "good faith" estimate of some five years to get the troops and the equipment out, given the security issues in transportation, etc. to safe harbors.
Gster said:
Vaughn- That's just for moving personnel. I'd like to know how much worn out junk we'll leave there?
And then upon return, these units will have to be resupplied with replacement equiptment, and that's Big Bucks!
And then upon return, these units will have to be resupplied with replacement equiptment, and that's Big Bucks!
lindainks55 said:
We could certainly begin by NOT sending more! Don't we have units (I'm sure that's not the correct term, but don't know what would be) training or getting prepared to replace others whose deployment is ending? Isn't this like a circle?
Gary, I think I've heard much of the equipment won't come back because it isn't worth bringing back. Guess what parts of Iraq we didn't blow up we make into a trash can.
Gster said:
Linda- IIRC some time next spring the Pentagon will have to either extend the tour lengths,, decrease the time between deployments, and/or dig deeper into the Guard/Reserve pool to maintain things at the current level of operation. We don't have enough manpower to continue Bush's Folly at the current pace.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Gster, that's my recollection of various public utterances and private utterances made public (involuntarily, in some cases) of the Pentagon on this issue. I understand, BTW, that even with relaxation of criteria and reduction of the goals that the Army hasn't made its recruiting goals for at least two successive months. Meanwhile, in a decision which makes no sense to me, the USAF has announced a 40,000 RIF for the next fiscal year.
Vaughn Tolle said:
I just had an epiphany. By the RIF, those who want to serve their country but would rather do it in the USAF, are now in a position to have to enlist in the Army or not be able to serve. /sarcasm
lindainks55 said:
I had to google it but give me credit for knowing it is "reduction in force," not "reading is fundamental." You know how some people talk of learning something new each day? I have so much to learn, if I make the effort I learn MANY new things each day!
lindainks55 said:
bush is talking on CNN. You can easily tell he hasn't had time to practice reading the written words. While trying to spread his fear, he is doing an unusually poor job (now that's saying a LOT!) But he has his brow furrowed and is trying hard to look like the words mean something to him and he is serious about the whole situation. He is such a ridiculous excuse for a leader!
Gster said:
Linda- While watching him , you can play the Clown game and count how many times he says he "fully understands" something. This coming from a guy that doesn't know the difference between day and night!
???
???
lindainks55 said:
Good idea! At least he hasn't yet paused and said, "In other words." When he does that we know some really weird stuff is gonna come out of that mouth! Stuff straight from HIS brain instead of a speech writers. He is trying not to appear to be reading, so he looks down and gets a few words than looks up to deliver them. All this accomplishes is emphasis in ALL the wrong places and makes it more obvious he has NO IDEA what that paper says.
Vaughn Tolle said:
In other words, the White House decided the heat is on, so they trot W out to deliver prepared remarks. The heat must really be on if he didn't have time to look them over before presentation (based upon Linda's and Gster's comments), which, of course, assumes he does so ordinarily.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Totally off any topic; sitting here listening to my "favorite college radio station" (no on-air DJ right now) and just heard "Walkin' My Cat Named Dog". It's been a long, long time....
Gster said:
When I see Bush talking to the press, I keep seeing those shots of Wiley Coyote standing in the highway, with his ears drooped, just before the semi hits him!
Freudian , perhaps?
Freudian , perhaps?
Vaughn Tolle said:
Gster, is the semi labeled GOP Senators Looking for Payback?
Now, Brook Benton and "A Rainy Night in Georgia". Either I need to quit listening, or they need to play some other vintage music, as I'm accomplishing little but singing along (much to the dismay of all within earshot).
Now, Brook Benton and "A Rainy Night in Georgia". Either I need to quit listening, or they need to play some other vintage music, as I'm accomplishing little but singing along (much to the dismay of all within earshot).
Gster said:
VT- If you're not careful, you'll have your co-workers believing the place is haunted!
??
??
Vaughn Tolle said:
Possessed is more like it, Gster. Now, selections from "Tapestry" (ubiquitous in women's residence halls in the early 1970s) and "Me and Bobby McGee" (Janis Joplin version), which followed "Maggie Mae".... Golly, I'm feeling young(er) today fer sure.
Rox said:
The one thing I did see/hear while I was gone was Chertoff's "gut feeling" comment. It's really hard to take anyone in the administration at their word. As bad as Bush's war is going, I take Chertoff's comment with a grain of salt. Maybe if he'd had some stats to back that up... But I remember all too well prior to the 2004 elections when they used terrorism and the color alerts to stir up the country.
Yes, I'm jaded.
VT, thanks for answering about the Iraq elections.
Yes, I'm jaded.
VT, thanks for answering about the Iraq elections.
Gster said:
VT- Be very careful; the second time you're possessed, you could be in danger of being re-possessed! It's probably all down hill after that.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Rox, no problem. I must say I'm not at all confident in my response, but it seems to me that there is something in that constitution that calls for parliamentary elections every five or six years. However, in a quick review of three sources on the net, there is no mention of this anywhere.
Vaughn Tolle said:
More on the music streaming on my computer. It's been a very interesting afternoon, to say the least. Lately, there has been a variety of everything, jazz, folk, etc., with a heavy concentration of "old" anti-war stuff from the Vietnam days. Currently, Patti Smith's cover of "Gimme Shelter" is playing. While nothing will replace the original Stones' version, this one is quickly becoming a favorite of mine.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Well, good morning all. Following up on the music from my "favorite college radio station", we had a phone call with the younger who is working this summer for admissions at Colby. During the conversation, she let it be known that she's a DJ this summer, too. Apparently her show is on Tuesday mornings, six to eight Eastern (too early for me to listen, that's for sure). Wonder if she's got a new career path?
lindainks55 said:
At minimum a new area of knowledge and experience! It's so wonderful they get to have such opportunities. Sounds like Dad may have shared his appreciation of music.
Danny said:
Pardon the late reply to you Vaughn(Posted By Vaughn Tolle | 7/16/07 8:21 AM)
Unfortunately, no I didn't catch that he attemptted to backtrack. While, I wouldn't be entirely surprised by this either. However, maybe that is really what is needed: a healthy belief in themselves that they can solve the problems without us being there in as large a force as we are.
===
Anyway, I'm working this week and will be taking next week off. My mother in law is in town so not alot of need to have me home helping out, so my time can be better spent working, then I can take vacation next week.
Rox,
Thanks for the compliment! My wife liked Savannah, and my mom came up with the middle name as I couldn't think of one. But when I heard I liked it.
Unfortunately, no I didn't catch that he attemptted to backtrack. While, I wouldn't be entirely surprised by this either. However, maybe that is really what is needed: a healthy belief in themselves that they can solve the problems without us being there in as large a force as we are.
===
Anyway, I'm working this week and will be taking next week off. My mother in law is in town so not alot of need to have me home helping out, so my time can be better spent working, then I can take vacation next week.
Rox,
Thanks for the compliment! My wife liked Savannah, and my mom came up with the middle name as I couldn't think of one. But when I heard I liked it.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Linda, Dad has "big ears" (namely, likes to listen to all kinds of music). Unlike the two offspring, my wife, and my parents by the way, the only thing I can play is the "radio". When I gave up the Trombone in fifth grade, I earned the eternal gratitude of all music lovers everywhere (past, present and future).
Dan, no prob, my man; you've much more important stuff happening in your life these days.
Dan, no prob, my man; you've much more important stuff happening in your life these days.
Rox said:
It's definitely true that music soothes the savage beast. Not that you're a savage beast, VT, but music during the day can make it all go easier. It has the power to turn a frown into a smile as we hum along.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Rox, thank you for the compliment. Quibble: I thought that music had the power to "soothe the savage breast". ;-)
lindainks55 said:
Grrrooooaaannnnnn!
How did you learn that!??? I've often accused Wayne of being full of useless information (he wins at most trivia contests!). I think I've found someone who can best him!
How did you learn that!??? I've often accused Wayne of being full of useless information (he wins at most trivia contests!). I think I've found someone who can best him!
roxann delaney said:
VT, you're not a savage breast, either. :)
I had a gut feeling 'beast' wasn't right, but I'm too lazy to google it until this computer has more RAM. (That last is an added excuse.)
Why is it that one needs a vacation to recuperate from a vacation?
I had a gut feeling 'beast' wasn't right, but I'm too lazy to google it until this computer has more RAM. (That last is an added excuse.)
Why is it that one needs a vacation to recuperate from a vacation?
Vaughn Tolle said:
Linda, I don't do trivia contests, as my mind is so full of "useless information", the sort time takes too long before I can pop the right answer from the stack. I'm using your phrase here, as it is the same as used by members of my immediate family (often).
To answer your question directly, we read the poem in the section of English 2H in which I was enrolled in Spring, 1969 at KU. Our professor facilitated the discussion of the meaning of the phrase as the same appears therein, as well as the phrase most believe to be correct, and how the first seemingly evolved into the latter. All I recall is the phrase itself; the mists of time have mercifully blocked the rest.
To answer your question directly, we read the poem in the section of English 2H in which I was enrolled in Spring, 1969 at KU. Our professor facilitated the discussion of the meaning of the phrase as the same appears therein, as well as the phrase most believe to be correct, and how the first seemingly evolved into the latter. All I recall is the phrase itself; the mists of time have mercifully blocked the rest.
lindainks55 said:
English, Vaughn! Sometimes you prove that making English our country's official language won't change anything; some people (YOU) use more English than others (ME) can easily understand.
Just pickin' on you a little and hoping you take it in the fun way intended.
A wealth of useless information, huh? Well, I know for a fact there is a lot of USEFUL info in there too.
Just pickin' on you a little and hoping you take it in the fun way intended.
A wealth of useless information, huh? Well, I know for a fact there is a lot of USEFUL info in there too.
Danny said:
Vaughn,
I used to play piano, but not at all as well as my sisters. Oddly enough, I'll be getting a piano from my in-laws, so maybe my daughters will learn to play(eldest likes to play on a little cheap keyboard we got her).
I used to play piano, but not at all as well as my sisters. Oddly enough, I'll be getting a piano from my in-laws, so maybe my daughters will learn to play(eldest likes to play on a little cheap keyboard we got her).
Danny said:
This is my thought on the things I know. If it is something that has potential importance I'll forget it when I really need it. If on the other hand there is no way that knowing some piece of information could ever possibly help me, I'll remember it forever. I've no clue why that is either.
Lets see, I've been thinking about topics for computer discussion. I'm not exactly certain just what I'll talk about, maybe something with terminology definitions.
Lets see, I've been thinking about topics for computer discussion. I'm not exactly certain just what I'll talk about, maybe something with terminology definitions.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Rox, I've always needed a vacation to recuperate from a vacation. Don't know what that says about me, but 'tis true.
Linda, at least I TRY to use English in place of my native language of legalese. :-)
Linda, at least I TRY to use English in place of my native language of legalese. :-)
Vaughn Tolle said:
Danny, good for you on the keyboard/piano thing. I was not blessed with the ability to do that, unlike the elder, who was "pretty darn good" while taking lessons here through High School, and continued with them through college. Both girls were very good clarinetists, the elder becoming Concert Master of the Symphonic Wind Ensemble at her college; the younger gave it up after the eighth grade, having been captivated by the call of the footlights (Parental Brag Warning: her roles in high school were Bloody Mary in South Pacific; Rizzo in Grease; Apassionata von Climax in Li'l Abner; ;and Adelaide in Guys and Dolls - we teased her about being typecast in the role of the bad girl gone worse!) which showed the development of a quite pleasing Alto voice. She's done a bit of work in college as well. My wife took piano lessons for several years; my parents both took piano lessons for a long time, and participated in the marching/stage bands in high school. That family ability just flat jumped over me. I'm a believer, BTW, in the connection between early musical training and development of those parts of the brain involved in math, for example.
Danny said:
Vaughn,
You and I both when it comes to music and math. I see a positive correlation there. For me, the allure of piano was its calm sounds. I'll probably play it again when my wife and I inherit our piano from her parents. ;)
Congrats to your daughters, those are some great accomplishments. Only one of my sisters ever did anything along those lines, though I think all three probably should have played instruments in some of the bands in highschool, granted my opinion could be quite biased.
You and I both when it comes to music and math. I see a positive correlation there. For me, the allure of piano was its calm sounds. I'll probably play it again when my wife and I inherit our piano from her parents. ;)
Congrats to your daughters, those are some great accomplishments. Only one of my sisters ever did anything along those lines, though I think all three probably should have played instruments in some of the bands in highschool, granted my opinion could be quite biased.
Gster said:
I started my musical career in the 7th grade with a clarinet. I could read sheet music and move my fingers without any trouble, but I soon subscribed to the school of thought that says half a reed is as good as a full one. I remember my band instructor saying that my playing recitals was the most emotional music he'd ever heard! When he said it sounded like a ruptured duck call, I turned my musical aspirations elsewhere.
Danny said:
Gster,
I never had aspirations of being musically talented by any means. I just enjoyed playing for the sake of it. Much like school, I've contemplated taking some MBA courses though likely I will not.
I never had aspirations of being musically talented by any means. I just enjoyed playing for the sake of it. Much like school, I've contemplated taking some MBA courses though likely I will not.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Danny, even if you do not take any MBA courses, may I suggest you consider taking a course or two in Accounting (if you have not). I'd suggest one in "general financial accounting" and one in "managerial accounting" for a fundamental basis. Yeah, I'm an old accounting major.
Danny said:
Vaughn,
I may look into that. I'd like to diversify a little bit more. Criminology isn't a "worthless degree", but I don't really use it my job. However, accounting could be useful. I'm just looking to more supplement my degrees. So long as classes are offered in the evening, I think I can pull it off.
I may look into that. I'd like to diversify a little bit more. Criminology isn't a "worthless degree", but I don't really use it my job. However, accounting could be useful. I'm just looking to more supplement my degrees. So long as classes are offered in the evening, I think I can pull it off.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Go for it, Danny. It used to be a bit of gallows humor up at KU in the School of Business that even when the economy wasn't so good, and the marketing majors, the finance majors, etc. were having trouble finding employment, the Accounting majors often had many interviewing firms from which to choose.
One thing I've noticed in general since I've been out of school is the number of ads seeking folks to do payroll, etc. for businesses. Now, FYI, I believe any competent bookkeeper can do a bang-up job in payroll preparation and other tasks associated therewith, but I've often thought of that as a possible secondary job when things in my roller coaster world are in the downturn.
One thing I've noticed in general since I've been out of school is the number of ads seeking folks to do payroll, etc. for businesses. Now, FYI, I believe any competent bookkeeper can do a bang-up job in payroll preparation and other tasks associated therewith, but I've often thought of that as a possible secondary job when things in my roller coaster world are in the downturn.
lindainks55 said:
Computer programs that figure all the deductions including those that are pre-tax make payroll fairly simple. The problems come before time to input the hours when you need to figure out how many hours were vacation, sick, OT, etc. No matter how fool proof you try to make it someone didn't remember to clock in (or the equivalent), has exhausted paid time off; add in FLMA and you see where the complications come before. That same program gives the info needed for the 941 filings, the W-2s etc. so it's fairly foolproof. A very good employee handbook that answers all those questions in advance comes in mighty handy. Most employees think there are laws giving them this or that when there aren't. Most of the "perks" are from the employer not any laws. When I was doing payroll the program knew all the state withholding tables including states like Texas without state income tax.
But now I'm a bum. I do such a superior job I just know it was my life's calling!
But now I'm a bum. I do such a superior job I just know it was my life's calling!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Linda, my favorite "street employment law" question is one I get about every six months or so: "I heard there is a law that requires my boss to give me a 15 minute break twice a day" or similar wording. The answer is "No, the law requires you be provided at least one-half hour for a meal break if you've worked at least five consecutive hours". Usual response: the hangup of a telephone.
As you say, Linda, many things that "on the street" are considered laws are, in fact, matters of "special contract" between the employer and employee (to use the phraseology of the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act) or, in a union shop, a part of the collective bargaining agreement.
You are right, of course, about the programs. Usually work very well.
As you say, Linda, many things that "on the street" are considered laws are, in fact, matters of "special contract" between the employer and employee (to use the phraseology of the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act) or, in a union shop, a part of the collective bargaining agreement.
You are right, of course, about the programs. Usually work very well.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Rox, just noticed your July 6 post on the 1964 NYC World's Fair. Again demonstrating my head full of useless information, the Pieta was done by Michaelangelo, not DaVinci. ;-)
Hope all have had a good day today, and no one is concerned about friends, relatives, acquaintances in Valley Center.
Hope all have had a good day today, and no one is concerned about friends, relatives, acquaintances in Valley Center.
Rox said:
VT, of course you're right. I realized that a few days later when telling my friend about the exhibit. Chalk it up to having a very blonde moment. It was a real forehead slapper. A huge DUH! Too late and too far away to crawl back here, red-faced and admit my dumb error. Hey, I admit to being a ditz. I'm also not completely sure my brain and fingers are communicating with each other any more.
But thanks for pointing it out. :) I'll try to screw the head on a little tighter in the future. Rightie tightie, loosey leftie, right? >g<
But thanks for pointing it out. :) I'll try to screw the head on a little tighter in the future. Rightie tightie, loosey leftie, right? >g<
Danny said:
Vaughn,
I knew that the law didn't require breaks(15 minute ones), but don't tell that to some former employers though. I like it when they believe two 15 minute breaks were the "law". I generally take two 15 minute breaks and an hour lunch anyway, mostly because I don't think well throughout the day without a break.
So, in my attempted weekly technology preview. I've decided to talk a little about the Microsoft Robotics Studio. This little studio is very neat, and can be used on a multitude of robots ranging from the Lego NXT(and I think Mindstorm also, have tried it with the Mindstorm yet) to more expensive robots used by academia and law enforcement, etc.
Primarily being from Microsoft, Windows is the only supported platform for development. However, this shouldn't be considered a draw back. Some of the things I like about this studio is its virtual physics simulator and as mentioned above the multiple robots it can target. It is really kind of neat to use my PDA to control a robot, or depending on the robot have the code running on the robot itself.
Alot of uses for it, and the environment used to code the robots with is simple enough for most to pick up easily enough if willing to learn the language used(C#). Next time I think I'll talk about some differences and similarities between two types of languages: those that need a Virtual Machine and those that compile to Native Code.
I knew that the law didn't require breaks(15 minute ones), but don't tell that to some former employers though. I like it when they believe two 15 minute breaks were the "law". I generally take two 15 minute breaks and an hour lunch anyway, mostly because I don't think well throughout the day without a break.
So, in my attempted weekly technology preview. I've decided to talk a little about the Microsoft Robotics Studio. This little studio is very neat, and can be used on a multitude of robots ranging from the Lego NXT(and I think Mindstorm also, have tried it with the Mindstorm yet) to more expensive robots used by academia and law enforcement, etc.
Primarily being from Microsoft, Windows is the only supported platform for development. However, this shouldn't be considered a draw back. Some of the things I like about this studio is its virtual physics simulator and as mentioned above the multiple robots it can target. It is really kind of neat to use my PDA to control a robot, or depending on the robot have the code running on the robot itself.
Alot of uses for it, and the environment used to code the robots with is simple enough for most to pick up easily enough if willing to learn the language used(C#). Next time I think I'll talk about some differences and similarities between two types of languages: those that need a Virtual Machine and those that compile to Native Code.
Danny said:
I was reading the blog at WE. I know not everyone sees things how I do, and I actually appreciate that fact believe it or not. It allows me to think about whether my perspective is right or wrong and what views I should examine more closely. However, for what ever reason, the economy was brought up there and listening to the debate got me thinking.
While I didn't post my response there, this is what I typed up:
The question posed is the economy better? The answer is in my opinion, yes and no. This depends on how one looks at it. I can't spend as much on consumer goods that I want to have but I can on the things that I need to have.
I had to learn while attending college to manage a budget making about 14,500 a year. So I quickly learned the difference in wants and needs. I read above that many people are borrowing beyond their means. I interpret this as people not making good decisions between wants and needs. By example, I wanted to have McDonalds(ok no I didn't, but I'm using it) and lunch at McDonald's costs say about $5. However, I had two other options, I want lunch but I didn't necessarily need it so I didn't have to get lunch or I could make a sandwich or two and bring my lunch with me(at a cost of about $5 for just shy of 10 days). So a little over $.50 a day vs. $5 per day. How many of those living in debt choose to go out to eat for lunch(out of convenience) vs. bringing their own lunch?
Sure, the economy probably isn't as good as it could be, but at the same time I don't believe it is entirely doom and gloom either. I do believe some people need to better manage their resources in identifying those wants and needs. But people not identifying those wants and needs and separating them and making good financial decisions isn't the responsibility of the government. However, I do think that what is the responsibility of the government is protecting consumers from lenders who willfully lend money out potentially/probably knowing that the borrower is highly unlikely to be able to pay that back.
Now that I have graduated and work full time, I make more but still use the mentality of identifying wants and needs. I'm not saying that everyone does poorly at this, but I'd say their may well be a substantial percentage of people who do. Is that the governments responsibility to protect consumers from themselves?
----
My question is, how well do you believe the economy is actually doing? How often do you think people make mistakes(costly ones at that at times) by living beyond their means?(taking out loans to get want items vs. need items). What do you think needs to happen to make our economy better? Are we a more "service" oriented economy vs. manufacturing economy now? How does that affect our economy?
Then most importantly, does my personal situation describe a majority of those living around the same level but are in financial trouble being so because of poor choices or because their was nothing in their reach that they needed? Because I found things within my reach, was I a statistical anomaly?
Thanks for reading.
While I didn't post my response there, this is what I typed up:
The question posed is the economy better? The answer is in my opinion, yes and no. This depends on how one looks at it. I can't spend as much on consumer goods that I want to have but I can on the things that I need to have.
I had to learn while attending college to manage a budget making about 14,500 a year. So I quickly learned the difference in wants and needs. I read above that many people are borrowing beyond their means. I interpret this as people not making good decisions between wants and needs. By example, I wanted to have McDonalds(ok no I didn't, but I'm using it) and lunch at McDonald's costs say about $5. However, I had two other options, I want lunch but I didn't necessarily need it so I didn't have to get lunch or I could make a sandwich or two and bring my lunch with me(at a cost of about $5 for just shy of 10 days). So a little over $.50 a day vs. $5 per day. How many of those living in debt choose to go out to eat for lunch(out of convenience) vs. bringing their own lunch?
Sure, the economy probably isn't as good as it could be, but at the same time I don't believe it is entirely doom and gloom either. I do believe some people need to better manage their resources in identifying those wants and needs. But people not identifying those wants and needs and separating them and making good financial decisions isn't the responsibility of the government. However, I do think that what is the responsibility of the government is protecting consumers from lenders who willfully lend money out potentially/probably knowing that the borrower is highly unlikely to be able to pay that back.
Now that I have graduated and work full time, I make more but still use the mentality of identifying wants and needs. I'm not saying that everyone does poorly at this, but I'd say their may well be a substantial percentage of people who do. Is that the governments responsibility to protect consumers from themselves?
----
My question is, how well do you believe the economy is actually doing? How often do you think people make mistakes(costly ones at that at times) by living beyond their means?(taking out loans to get want items vs. need items). What do you think needs to happen to make our economy better? Are we a more "service" oriented economy vs. manufacturing economy now? How does that affect our economy?
Then most importantly, does my personal situation describe a majority of those living around the same level but are in financial trouble being so because of poor choices or because their was nothing in their reach that they needed? Because I found things within my reach, was I a statistical anomaly?
Thanks for reading.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Danny, my lips are sealed! ;-) BTW, the issue you raise, namely more efficient when allowed 15 min. twice a day + hour lunch is one of the reasons underlying the practice (although not required by statute). Cite: Organizational Behavior and Administration, University of Kansas, Spring, 1970, a/k/a Business 79 (back in the day).
Regarding your questions concerning the economy, the situation in which many are, etc., these deserve some reflection and an attempt to answer in the vein posted. Thus, when I have time, I'll be back with responses to at least a part.
By serious answers, I mean more than (seriatim): Poorly; often; restructure of the tax system plus ending the Iraq war; yes; unknown long term. See ya later!
Regarding your questions concerning the economy, the situation in which many are, etc., these deserve some reflection and an attempt to answer in the vein posted. Thus, when I have time, I'll be back with responses to at least a part.
By serious answers, I mean more than (seriatim): Poorly; often; restructure of the tax system plus ending the Iraq war; yes; unknown long term. See ya later!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Oops, forgot the two questions posed in the final paragraph by Danny. Again, seriatim: poor choices, IMHO; not necessarily.
lindainks55 said:
Good topic Danny. I will be most interested in Vaughn's opinion. He has the education I don't. He understands what our country's debt means and how it affects other areas. All the economic indicators, the various reports of unemployment, productivity and such are GREEK to me. It seems they can be interpreted too many different (and often opposing) ways. I have lived a few years and managed to get "here" without debt and with some savings so I know something about financial responsibility.
I grew up with very little that money could buy. I realized my hopes and was able to give my children more than I had. Don't we all have that hope? Thank goodness my resources were limited because I think many lessons are learned from needing to work for something rather than having it given. I'm not sure I would have been smart enough to make my kids work for "things" if it hadn't happened out of necessity. Giving is such fun! I have always had a guardian angel looking out for me!
Our house is paid for and is worth a lot more than we paid for it. We can still afford to pay the ever-increasing taxes and insurance. Our investments are growing. We have health, dental, vision insurance so unless we exceed the policy maximums we're protected there. All seems well, huh?
I have to watch much more carefully nowadays. Last month we had new carpet installed. Guess what? Lots of carpeting is a petroleum product! So, I couldn't look JUST at what I liked, I had to look at the price too. But I was able to buy new carpets! All our utilities are higher, food costs more so I'm back to watching and economizing -- a few years ago I bought whatever I wanted to cook and eat. We have less discretionary income because the necessities cost more. We eat out less often because it costs more than cooking at home. But I haven't canceled internet service, satellite TV, the daily newspaper, we have both a home phone and cell phones, two cars, we set the thermostat where we are comfortable... There are many ways I could cut back so I am still spending money on "wants," and haven't cut back to "needs."
So what does this all mean? I don't know! I do know I have a sense of unease. Nothing I can explain but a strong feeling that causes me to buy only what I can pay for. No credit buying here! I'm uneasy about the health of our economy. It seems like we are ignoring reality and that's scary to me.
I grew up with very little that money could buy. I realized my hopes and was able to give my children more than I had. Don't we all have that hope? Thank goodness my resources were limited because I think many lessons are learned from needing to work for something rather than having it given. I'm not sure I would have been smart enough to make my kids work for "things" if it hadn't happened out of necessity. Giving is such fun! I have always had a guardian angel looking out for me!
Our house is paid for and is worth a lot more than we paid for it. We can still afford to pay the ever-increasing taxes and insurance. Our investments are growing. We have health, dental, vision insurance so unless we exceed the policy maximums we're protected there. All seems well, huh?
I have to watch much more carefully nowadays. Last month we had new carpet installed. Guess what? Lots of carpeting is a petroleum product! So, I couldn't look JUST at what I liked, I had to look at the price too. But I was able to buy new carpets! All our utilities are higher, food costs more so I'm back to watching and economizing -- a few years ago I bought whatever I wanted to cook and eat. We have less discretionary income because the necessities cost more. We eat out less often because it costs more than cooking at home. But I haven't canceled internet service, satellite TV, the daily newspaper, we have both a home phone and cell phones, two cars, we set the thermostat where we are comfortable... There are many ways I could cut back so I am still spending money on "wants," and haven't cut back to "needs."
So what does this all mean? I don't know! I do know I have a sense of unease. Nothing I can explain but a strong feeling that causes me to buy only what I can pay for. No credit buying here! I'm uneasy about the health of our economy. It seems like we are ignoring reality and that's scary to me.
Rox said:
Danny,
I've been following the posts on the WE Blog, but I'm a bit behind. I did see the beginning of the thread on economy and just read your post here, so I'll comment, although not objectively. ;)
My view of an economy will be different than yours, VT's, and Linda's. It does depend on your circumstances, and I think that's the key we have to keep in mind. Those in a two wage-earning family, where no one has lost a job in the past six years, have a different experience than those who don't and have. Those with a higher education and a degree will be different than those who don't. So many variables can make a huge difference.
For instance, I'm a single mom and have been since mid-2000. Helluva time to decide to go it alone, but, hey, I didn't know George W. Bush would become president. I didn't know some whackos would fly planes into some buildings. I didn't know the job I had in early 2001 would be outsourced to Canada. I didn't know being over the age of 50 would mean jobs would be even harder to find. That makes my situation and those of my friends here a lot different.
As for overall, here's my take on it and ONLY my worthless opinion. As strange as it may seem, I'm able to judge the economy in part by overall book sales in this country. When the economy is shaky, people (especially women) tend not to spend money on those discretionary items, such as books. When the economy is good, they have the extra money to spend on "entertainment". For several years, I've heard (and experienced) that book sales are lower. Last week, I heard book sales are going up again. Because it's been only recently that sales are increasing, we on the royalties-receiving end haven't yet seen an increase in our income, but we should in the next year or so. It gives one hope. ::grin::
For some, the state of the economy is improving, but I don't feel that a service-based economy will ever be as good as the manufacturing-based economy was. Service-based works when money is flowing and we can afforc the 'wants' that are provided by it. Manufacturing-based provides us with goods that are more 'needs' than 'wants'.
If we continue to outsource with nothing stable to replace that which is gone, in the end, the middle and lower classes, who are the ones most affected by outsourcing, will not be purchasing. And then how will those providing the services and goods stay in business?
But then, I could be wrong. LOL
I've been following the posts on the WE Blog, but I'm a bit behind. I did see the beginning of the thread on economy and just read your post here, so I'll comment, although not objectively. ;)
My view of an economy will be different than yours, VT's, and Linda's. It does depend on your circumstances, and I think that's the key we have to keep in mind. Those in a two wage-earning family, where no one has lost a job in the past six years, have a different experience than those who don't and have. Those with a higher education and a degree will be different than those who don't. So many variables can make a huge difference.
For instance, I'm a single mom and have been since mid-2000. Helluva time to decide to go it alone, but, hey, I didn't know George W. Bush would become president. I didn't know some whackos would fly planes into some buildings. I didn't know the job I had in early 2001 would be outsourced to Canada. I didn't know being over the age of 50 would mean jobs would be even harder to find. That makes my situation and those of my friends here a lot different.
As for overall, here's my take on it and ONLY my worthless opinion. As strange as it may seem, I'm able to judge the economy in part by overall book sales in this country. When the economy is shaky, people (especially women) tend not to spend money on those discretionary items, such as books. When the economy is good, they have the extra money to spend on "entertainment". For several years, I've heard (and experienced) that book sales are lower. Last week, I heard book sales are going up again. Because it's been only recently that sales are increasing, we on the royalties-receiving end haven't yet seen an increase in our income, but we should in the next year or so. It gives one hope. ::grin::
For some, the state of the economy is improving, but I don't feel that a service-based economy will ever be as good as the manufacturing-based economy was. Service-based works when money is flowing and we can afforc the 'wants' that are provided by it. Manufacturing-based provides us with goods that are more 'needs' than 'wants'.
If we continue to outsource with nothing stable to replace that which is gone, in the end, the middle and lower classes, who are the ones most affected by outsourcing, will not be purchasing. And then how will those providing the services and goods stay in business?
But then, I could be wrong. LOL
Rox said:
VT, if we were all perfect, the world would be a very dull place.
(And I only know the spelling because I made the same mistake while creating a slideshow for a friend who had been to Rome and had pix of Michelangelo's David, which I titled wrong. We all learn best by our mistakes. I learn a LOT. ::grin:: )
(And I only know the spelling because I made the same mistake while creating a slideshow for a friend who had been to Rome and had pix of Michelangelo's David, which I titled wrong. We all learn best by our mistakes. I learn a LOT. ::grin:: )
Vaughn Tolle said:
Time for a bit of serious response here. To begin, some general comments on Linda's responsive post together with some of the general issues underlying Danny's specific questions.
What is going on here, Linda, is (as Farm Girl and I have exchanged posts concerning "over there") that we are beginning to see the disturbing signs of inflation in the cost of certain goods and services which the practitioners of the dismal science label in their inimitable way "price inelastic". Translated into something resembling normal English, this means the demand for these goods and services is not affected by price. We all need to eat; thus, the demand for basic food is "price inelastic". We all need, in some form, medical care. Again, price inelastic, reflected by the ever-increasing cost of health insurance. Those of here in the U.S. feel we need to be able to drive our own vehicles as opposed to walking, riding a bicycle, using public transportation; thus, the cost of fuel, while not totally inelastic, has a bit of inelasticity in it due to our choices. Housing; we all need a place to live, correct? While there is some price elasticity in the choice of a place to live, many of us choose to pay a higher cost for what we consider to be the better location than we otherwise need to pay for basic housing. As can be seen, some things are truly price inelastic; some things are inelastic to some degree based upon our wants, contrasted with our needs.
To Danny's first question concerning the state of the economy. My initial response was "poor". Rationale: some of what makes the economy seem "good" as measured by the stock market makes the economy seem "bad" from the perspective of Joe Six-Pack. Investors in the market are looking for a maximization of return on their investment. One way to increase ROI, as measured say by the Price/Earnings ratio, is to increase earnings. One way a publicly traded corporation increases earnings is by cost reduction. One way to reduce costs overall is to reduce the cost of labor. One way to reduce cost of labor is to layoff high cost employees, replacing them with low cost employees (think off-shore jobs or exploitation of illegal aliens here), or count on increased productivity of a constant or decreased number of employees (think capital investment in new computers, e.g., here versus hiring additional employees). The "economy" in the Clinton years serves as an example here. Much of the gain overall (both in the market and in employment) was the result of exploitation of the quickly evolving technology, that is, existing firms didn't need to hire as many new folks, but could employ the new technology to do more work. Additionally, there was a great demand for the new technology, opening up opportunities for new businesses to produce/sell/support the same, which needed to employ folks, etc. As the productivity outpaced any increased costs, there was, in fact, little to no inflation, especially in the "core" areas. With the "bubble burst" and subsequent recession, many folks in the new businesses lost their jobs. Folks in the traditional areas such as manufacturing also lost their jobs, only in this case, it was an increase in the rate such jobs were lost, as manufacturing jobs have been (at first quietly) been going away from at least the early 1960s. Add to this the Merger and Acquisition "craze" (only the latest version) that began in the later Clinton years, which picked up steam in the early GWB years (as a "friendly" DOJ was perceived, lessening the anti-trust risk), which resulted in additional layoffs, but better reduction of labor costs (economies of scale and all that). The investors stood to do better; the workers, worse.
While in a bit of a downturn today, the Stock Market, as measured by the Dow Industrials, the S&P 500, and other traditional indexes, has been performing well in the past two years, due to labor costs being slashed, continued consumer consumption which was not necessarily the result of better wages (in fact, wages have been, until fairly recently, stagnant) but from folks tapping the equity in their homes to convert the asset from one illiquid form (real estate) into a liquid form (cash to spend). Rising real estate valuations were involved here, as was to some extent the lower interest rates resulting from real growth with little inflation. Now, as these chickens come home to roost, more people are finding it difficult to handle the increased monthly payment on the mortgage as the interest rate on their ARM adjusts upwards, and they cannot refinance as values have become stagnant at best, and are falling in many areas, combined with no increase in their wages. Add to this the "subprime" lenders making loans to folks who really were not in a position to repay the loan, but could afford the "interest only" payments in the first year or so, combined with the belief the value of the real estate would continue to rise which would result in either more favorable terms on a refi or the ability to "flip" the property and get out from under the mortgage with some money in their pocket (not happening, folks), which IMHO is contributing to the near record number of foreclosures being filed nation wide, all of which is depressing the value of real estate, or in my opinion, correcting the overvaluation thereof.
The number of us enjoying directly the runup of the market is small compared to the number of us suffering adversely from stagnant wages, layoffs, increasing inflation in "price inelastic" areas, the lack of further productivity gains to be achieved under the current technology (development of which has "plateaued"), etc., etc., results in my assessment of "poor".
What is going on here, Linda, is (as Farm Girl and I have exchanged posts concerning "over there") that we are beginning to see the disturbing signs of inflation in the cost of certain goods and services which the practitioners of the dismal science label in their inimitable way "price inelastic". Translated into something resembling normal English, this means the demand for these goods and services is not affected by price. We all need to eat; thus, the demand for basic food is "price inelastic". We all need, in some form, medical care. Again, price inelastic, reflected by the ever-increasing cost of health insurance. Those of here in the U.S. feel we need to be able to drive our own vehicles as opposed to walking, riding a bicycle, using public transportation; thus, the cost of fuel, while not totally inelastic, has a bit of inelasticity in it due to our choices. Housing; we all need a place to live, correct? While there is some price elasticity in the choice of a place to live, many of us choose to pay a higher cost for what we consider to be the better location than we otherwise need to pay for basic housing. As can be seen, some things are truly price inelastic; some things are inelastic to some degree based upon our wants, contrasted with our needs.
To Danny's first question concerning the state of the economy. My initial response was "poor". Rationale: some of what makes the economy seem "good" as measured by the stock market makes the economy seem "bad" from the perspective of Joe Six-Pack. Investors in the market are looking for a maximization of return on their investment. One way to increase ROI, as measured say by the Price/Earnings ratio, is to increase earnings. One way a publicly traded corporation increases earnings is by cost reduction. One way to reduce costs overall is to reduce the cost of labor. One way to reduce cost of labor is to layoff high cost employees, replacing them with low cost employees (think off-shore jobs or exploitation of illegal aliens here), or count on increased productivity of a constant or decreased number of employees (think capital investment in new computers, e.g., here versus hiring additional employees). The "economy" in the Clinton years serves as an example here. Much of the gain overall (both in the market and in employment) was the result of exploitation of the quickly evolving technology, that is, existing firms didn't need to hire as many new folks, but could employ the new technology to do more work. Additionally, there was a great demand for the new technology, opening up opportunities for new businesses to produce/sell/support the same, which needed to employ folks, etc. As the productivity outpaced any increased costs, there was, in fact, little to no inflation, especially in the "core" areas. With the "bubble burst" and subsequent recession, many folks in the new businesses lost their jobs. Folks in the traditional areas such as manufacturing also lost their jobs, only in this case, it was an increase in the rate such jobs were lost, as manufacturing jobs have been (at first quietly) been going away from at least the early 1960s. Add to this the Merger and Acquisition "craze" (only the latest version) that began in the later Clinton years, which picked up steam in the early GWB years (as a "friendly" DOJ was perceived, lessening the anti-trust risk), which resulted in additional layoffs, but better reduction of labor costs (economies of scale and all that). The investors stood to do better; the workers, worse.
While in a bit of a downturn today, the Stock Market, as measured by the Dow Industrials, the S&P 500, and other traditional indexes, has been performing well in the past two years, due to labor costs being slashed, continued consumer consumption which was not necessarily the result of better wages (in fact, wages have been, until fairly recently, stagnant) but from folks tapping the equity in their homes to convert the asset from one illiquid form (real estate) into a liquid form (cash to spend). Rising real estate valuations were involved here, as was to some extent the lower interest rates resulting from real growth with little inflation. Now, as these chickens come home to roost, more people are finding it difficult to handle the increased monthly payment on the mortgage as the interest rate on their ARM adjusts upwards, and they cannot refinance as values have become stagnant at best, and are falling in many areas, combined with no increase in their wages. Add to this the "subprime" lenders making loans to folks who really were not in a position to repay the loan, but could afford the "interest only" payments in the first year or so, combined with the belief the value of the real estate would continue to rise which would result in either more favorable terms on a refi or the ability to "flip" the property and get out from under the mortgage with some money in their pocket (not happening, folks), which IMHO is contributing to the near record number of foreclosures being filed nation wide, all of which is depressing the value of real estate, or in my opinion, correcting the overvaluation thereof.
The number of us enjoying directly the runup of the market is small compared to the number of us suffering adversely from stagnant wages, layoffs, increasing inflation in "price inelastic" areas, the lack of further productivity gains to be achieved under the current technology (development of which has "plateaued"), etc., etc., results in my assessment of "poor".
Vaughn Tolle said:
Hey, Rox, if I didn't make any mistakes, I'd never learn a thing!
Contrarian view to Rox' booksales economic indicator (hey, it makes as much sense as many others!): People desire to be entertained. Due to adverse economic conditions, they cannot afford the price of admission at the multiplex any more. There is nothing new to watch on the 185 channels available on the tube, or there has been a cut back to only 60 channels, and there sure isn't anything to watch there. I know; when I was a kid, I liked reading. Let's go get a book! or Geez, can't afford to buy a book; I know, I'll use my library card (it's in here someplace {looking through purse/wallet/briefcase} and get something to read from the library. Oops, the dadgummed liberry don't have the book I want; well, better go buy it, and maybe I'll get a tax deduction when I give it to them!!
What about that, folks? (Tongue firmly planted in left cheek)
Contrarian view to Rox' booksales economic indicator (hey, it
What about that, folks? (Tongue firmly planted in left cheek)
Vaughn Tolle said:
To respond (this time more succinctly - I hear the applause now) to Danny's second question. While I'm no longer involved in Bankruptcy practice, from the issues being presented to me by various clients (not themselves, necessarily looking for BR protection, but other contractual and other relationships in which they have been/are involved), many, if not most of the issues being presented are the direct result of poor choices by someone involved in the transaction which adversely affects the client. Thus, "often".
Rox said:
VT, even for this math-impaired ditz, your explanation was clear. I agree. Is this cyclical? (Is that a word?) It reminds me of 'way back when' the lightbulb over my head went off as I realized that a raise in the minimum wage worked for a short period of time, before the cost of goods and services rose with it, in time. That's natural. If I, as a business owner, have to pay my employees more, I must eventually raise my prices to make up the difference. A vicious circle, but needed. And not nearly as well put as yours. :)
Rox said:
VT, your contrarian view was on the mark, but you missed one option in the entertainment/books area. Used book stores. Even Amazon and B&N have gone that route. Authors do not receive royalties on those books sold again. And you can bet there are millions of people who use that option, even when the economy is good. I've used it myself, more than once. ;) More often than not, I've curbed my book buying. Not that that's a bad thing. I have more books than God, and friends who have even more than I have, and a daughter who is quickly catching up with me.
I'm off to put my grandson down for a nap (and quiet time for me), so I'll try to catch up with y'all later.
I'm off to put my grandson down for a nap (and quiet time for me), so I'll try to catch up with y'all later.
Vaughn Tolle said:
On to issue #3, supra. Short answer was "Restructuring the tax system plus ending the Iraq war". Amplification: under the current federal income tax system, corporations are encouraged to take certain steps which don't make one whit of sense to those not intimately acquainted with the arcane provisions of the Internal Revenue Code ("Code", hereinafter). Perverse incentives exist for corporations to "off shore" subsidiaries, change the domicile for the corporation to a foreign country (see, e.g., Halliburton deciding to become domiciled in Dubai), etc., etc. There is a myriad of acronyms which are the common tongue in the area, which I shall spare you here. Toss into the mix various income tax treaties which exist between the U.S. and foreign nations, and it becomes very, very attractive to take steps which are contrary to the general economic welfare of the U.S., IMHO. The net result of these provisions is a loss of domestic operations with a corresponding decline in domestic employment. For an anecdotal example, Boeing has determined that it is in its best interests to subcontract assembly of certain tail sections of certain aircraft to the People's Republic of China. This was done as a part of an agreement to sell a certain number of aircraft to the PRC, as well as a vague promise to buy more. By so doing, not only does the reason to have domestic employment to produce such tail sections no longer exist, there is no need to contract with domestic subs to produce the same (if such production is deemed to be of economic benefit to the company), but the corporation obtains some very favorable income tax credits, etc. This, of course, makes the stockholders happy, as the amount of money available for dividend payments and reinvestment into operations increase, thereby increasing the value of the investment. The provisions which yield these results were placed into the Code for reasons other than generation of revenue for the government. These (and many, many others) are in the Code for achieving diplomatic, social, etc., ends which were/are felt to be desirable. The Code needs restructuring to remove these incentives.
Speaking of reform of the Code, a reason given often for special treatment of capital gain income is the encouragement of investment in corporations. To this I reply Male Bovine Feces! It is only the initial investor's money which is received by the company. Each subsequent owner holds the stock for one, and only one, purpose, maximization of return on investment. Any increase in the value of the stock post-IPO does not directly benefit the company issuing the same, but rather those who buy the stock from the guy who bought the stock from the gal who bought the stock who bought the stock from the initial purchaser. There is an indirect benefit to the issuer for purposes of pricing subsequent issues. As part of my radical approach to this, I'd limit the special capital gain/capital loss treatment to those who were the initial investors, that is, those whose money went to the company. For subsequent holders, as they are holding for income and growth, and their $$ didn't go to the company directly, any future gain/loss should be handled under the ordinary income/loss rules. Period. To respond to the argument that removing this treatment will make it more difficult for the initial investor to achieve a return on his/her investment, I disagree; if the company is profitable, etc., the subsequent purchasers will have reason to acquire the same. If not profitable, hey, the Initial Purchaser can take his loss, same as he could now, because bluntly, there's not going to be anyone who wants to buy it anyway.
Ending the Iraq war would reduce the great amount of deficit spending (currently off-budget) occurring to finance the same. All of this is being financed by sale of government debt securities, much of which is being held by the PRC and its institutions. The service on this debt (interest) will be paid by revenue collections that is, income and other taxes paid by us, our children, our children's children, ad infinitum. Reduction of the drag on the economy, replete with increased costs of borrowing (higher interest rates) by private companies, et al, will have a good effect overall. Further, spending on the military is, like it or not, inherently inflationary, a cost which, to some point, is needed to be borne by us for our security. It is inflationary because the goods and services purchased by the military do not become available to the public in the market place. I hope you get it, because I'm at a point where to go further will entail much more reading on your part, and much more typing (sic) on mine, and I need to get back to "real" work.
Speaking of reform of the Code, a reason given often for special treatment of capital gain income is the encouragement of investment in corporations. To this I reply Male Bovine Feces! It is only the initial investor's money which is received by the company. Each subsequent owner holds the stock for one, and only one, purpose, maximization of return on investment. Any increase in the value of the stock post-IPO does not directly benefit the company issuing the same, but rather those who buy the stock from the guy who bought the stock from the gal who bought the stock who bought the stock from the initial purchaser. There is an indirect benefit to the issuer for purposes of pricing subsequent issues. As part of my radical approach to this, I'd limit the special capital gain/capital loss treatment to those who were the initial investors, that is, those whose money went to the company. For subsequent holders, as they are holding for income and growth, and their $$ didn't go to the company directly, any future gain/loss should be handled under the ordinary income/loss rules. Period. To respond to the argument that removing this treatment will make it more difficult for the initial investor to achieve a return on his/her investment, I disagree; if the company is profitable, etc., the subsequent purchasers will have reason to acquire the same. If not profitable, hey, the Initial Purchaser can take his loss, same as he could now, because bluntly, there's not going to be anyone who wants to buy it anyway.
Ending the Iraq war would reduce the great amount of deficit spending (currently off-budget) occurring to finance the same. All of this is being financed by sale of government debt securities, much of which is being held by the PRC and its institutions. The service on this debt (interest) will be paid by revenue collections that is, income and other taxes paid by us, our children, our children's children, ad infinitum. Reduction of the drag on the economy, replete with increased costs of borrowing (higher interest rates) by private companies, et al, will have a good effect overall. Further, spending on the military is, like it or not, inherently inflationary, a cost which, to some point, is needed to be borne by us for our security. It is inflationary because the goods and services purchased by the military do not become available to the public in the market place. I hope you get it, because I'm at a point where to go further will entail much more reading on your part, and much more typing (sic) on mine, and I need to get back to "real" work.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Rox, forgot about the used bookstore. Since it doesn't put royalties into your pocket, I guess I didn't think it needed to be addressed. BTW, we've also more books than God. :-)
Re: cyclical. Yes, it is. The situation you describe so well is labeled "cost push" inflation by the economists. There is another kind of inflation economists like to talk about, namely "demand pull", where the supply of desirable widgets is not sufficient to meet the demand, which causes an "artificial" increase in the price, but not the value, of the widget. Think sticker price plus a premium for a desirable new car, e.g., Toyota Prius upon its initial introduction.
Re: cyclical. Yes, it is. The situation you describe so well is labeled "cost push" inflation by the economists. There is another kind of inflation economists like to talk about, namely "demand pull", where the supply of desirable widgets is not sufficient to meet the demand, which causes an "artificial" increase in the price, but not the value, of the widget. Think sticker price plus a premium for a desirable new car, e.g., Toyota Prius upon its initial introduction.
Danny said:
Vaughn,
I found this interesting. It will give me much to think about in terms of economic performance. I'd agree with your response to Rox(about book sales increasing), I only took a very basic economics class during my tenure at KSU and basically the stock market is only one of many indicators but what I gathered from it, is that any indicator makes sense.
Generally I buy books that I think that I will enjoy but at the same time I think(my now two children will enjoy also). So I bought the Harry Potter books and waiting for the final installment.
Back to the actual topic at hand though. I agree about the inelastic expenses, to some extent gasoline is inelastic in so far as when I have to do a full week of grocery shopping, I end up using the car, so inelastic expense on that is works out to about $30 a month, I really don't drive unless it is necessary right now.
In the last writing here(Posted By Vaughn Tolle | 7/18/07 1:09 PM), companies have tax incentives to off shore their work?!?! What the hell?(pardon my language) Is this something that started under Bush, Clinton, prior to that? To me I'm not so concerned who started but more about, why aren't we doing something correct that? It would seem that tax breaks should be provided for giving jobs to Americans working right here in the U.S. and as such they should be better than providing jobs to others outside the U.S.
But I did find all you responded to be good reading material for me after work tonight. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
Linda,
Yes, that is exactly how I was. I didn't have help paying for my education, I did it on my own with as few as loans as possible. So I learned quickly that budgeting is important and identifying needs and wants. The only want item I had was World of Warcraft when it came out because I could justify the monthly fee to play the game as I played it a little too religiously. So did my wife and her mom.
Rox,
My mother in law reads several books. I think Janet Ivanovich(spelling?) is one author she has been reading alot of lately. Granted, I'm more into the books Tom Clancy has written. However, I've several books by several different authors and forgive my ignorance as I don't remember all of the names at this time.
What are your thoughts on videogame writing? A bit of a different turn here from the economic discussion. Videogames are a relative "dream" of mine. Something I've noticed within the types of games I play is the better writing and story in the games. Probably as a result of videogame companies beginning to hire actual writers vs having a programmer or developer write the story.
I found this interesting. It will give me much to think about in terms of economic performance. I'd agree with your response to Rox(about book sales increasing), I only took a very basic economics class during my tenure at KSU and basically the stock market is only one of many indicators but what I gathered from it, is that any indicator makes sense.
Generally I buy books that I think that I will enjoy but at the same time I think(my now two children will enjoy also). So I bought the Harry Potter books and waiting for the final installment.
Back to the actual topic at hand though. I agree about the inelastic expenses, to some extent gasoline is inelastic in so far as when I have to do a full week of grocery shopping, I end up using the car, so inelastic expense on that is works out to about $30 a month, I really don't drive unless it is necessary right now.
In the last writing here(Posted By Vaughn Tolle | 7/18/07 1:09 PM), companies have tax incentives to off shore their work?!?! What the hell?(pardon my language) Is this something that started under Bush, Clinton, prior to that? To me I'm not so concerned who started but more about, why aren't we doing something correct that? It would seem that tax breaks should be provided for giving jobs to Americans working right here in the U.S. and as such they should be better than providing jobs to others outside the U.S.
But I did find all you responded to be good reading material for me after work tonight. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
Linda,
Yes, that is exactly how I was. I didn't have help paying for my education, I did it on my own with as few as loans as possible. So I learned quickly that budgeting is important and identifying needs and wants. The only want item I had was World of Warcraft when it came out because I could justify the monthly fee to play the game as I played it a little too religiously. So did my wife and her mom.
Rox,
My mother in law reads several books. I think Janet Ivanovich(spelling?) is one author she has been reading alot of lately. Granted, I'm more into the books Tom Clancy has written. However, I've several books by several different authors and forgive my ignorance as I don't remember all of the names at this time.
What are your thoughts on videogame writing? A bit of a different turn here from the economic discussion. Videogames are a relative "dream" of mine. Something I've noticed within the types of games I play is the better writing and story in the games. Probably as a result of videogame companies beginning to hire actual writers vs having a programmer or developer write the story.
Vaughn Tolle said:
To number 4. "Yes". The number of manufacturing jobs has been falling for decades, for some of the reasons set out in prior responses. The same have been replaced by "service" jobs. As you know, service sector jobs traditionally are at lower wages and fewer benefits than the traditional manufacturing jobs (due, in large part to unionization of these jobs). I'm not sure, by the way, on the correct way to classify what I call "technology" jobs. Sure, the construction of the components could be "manufacturing"; the sale, installation, service of the components are clearly "service". What is the correct classification of the writers of the code making the beasts operate? Clearly, not manufacturing in the traditional sense, but just as clearly, the traditional "service" classification seems to fail here, too.
I'm not in possession of the GDP numbers, etc. at the moment, but as memory serves, the last year or so it seems to me that the service sector has contributed more to the GDP than has the manufacturing sector. While not necessarily all bad, it raises the question of whether we, as a nation, can all be, e.g., Amway distributors selling products made elsewhere to each other with no new products being produced to generate the base income by which we can afford to buy/sell among ourselves. A trivial example to be sure, but if all we are doing as an economy is providing services to each other, from where come the necessary products, e.g., stoves, furniture, etc. for us to enjoy while we sell each other insurance?
I'm not in possession of the GDP numbers, etc. at the moment, but as memory serves, the last year or so it seems to me that the service sector has contributed more to the GDP than has the manufacturing sector. While not necessarily all bad, it raises the question of whether we, as a nation, can all be, e.g., Amway distributors selling products made elsewhere to each other with no new products being produced to generate the base income by which we can afford to buy/sell among ourselves. A trivial example to be sure, but if all we are doing as an economy is providing services to each other, from where come the necessary products, e.g., stoves, furniture, etc. for us to enjoy while we sell each other insurance?
Danny said:
Vaughn,
I've heard that really the best way to describe us is "designers" or "engineers". So I think in that sense we fall under the service classification. However, I think I could argue manufacturing also because we "create" a deliverable even if said deliverable doesn't have a "physical" presence in the traditional sense.
In regards to the balance of service/manufacturing jobs, I agree. I think there needs to be a good balance between these as I think in some respect each feeds off the other. Manufacturing makes better products based in part off what the service side of them says is bad about the currently line(and what consumers demand). Take away one or the other, and both decline.
I've heard that really the best way to describe us is "designers" or "engineers". So I think in that sense we fall under the service classification. However, I think I could argue manufacturing also because we "create" a deliverable even if said deliverable doesn't have a "physical" presence in the traditional sense.
In regards to the balance of service/manufacturing jobs, I agree. I think there needs to be a good balance between these as I think in some respect each feeds off the other. Manufacturing makes better products based in part off what the service side of them says is bad about the currently line(and what consumers demand). Take away one or the other, and both decline.
Rox said:
Interesting points, Danny and VT. It will take some solid reading before it all sinks in.
Some of those "designer" or "engineer" jobs have been outsourced, so look for more in the future. One of my best friend's sons is a mega website/computer technology wiz. I think I've mentioned him here before. While VP at one of those major companies, his job of "doing" was outsourced to India. Oh, he pushed papers here and spent the major part of his time fixing what they broke or didn't understand over there, but he wasn't allowed to do the job he was hired to do. He moved on to something better and with better pay, of course. He is now working at home, doing contract jobs and earning at least, if not more of what he was before. This guy is in demand because of his knowledge and expertise, which he always manages to keep one step ahead of most others.
Interesting world this has become as technology moves ahead at lightning speed.
Some of those "designer" or "engineer" jobs have been outsourced, so look for more in the future. One of my best friend's sons is a mega website/computer technology wiz. I think I've mentioned him here before. While VP at one of those major companies, his job of "doing" was outsourced to India. Oh, he pushed papers here and spent the major part of his time fixing what they broke or didn't understand over there, but he wasn't allowed to do the job he was hired to do. He moved on to something better and with better pay, of course. He is now working at home, doing contract jobs and earning at least, if not more of what he was before. This guy is in demand because of his knowledge and expertise, which he always manages to keep one step ahead of most others.
Interesting world this has become as technology moves ahead at lightning speed.
Vaughn Tolle said:
The incentives in the Code to offshore jobs, etc. while existing before to some limited extent began to gather steam during the Reagan years (remember the Tax Reform Act of 1981 et seq.?), but have exploded within the past decade. One modest beginning was the Domestic International Sales Corporation (DISC) provisions, which when examined today bear little semblance to the originals (but for the title). The purpose of these provisions was to encourage economic development in the areas surrounding the Soviet Bloc as a way to provide alternatives to Communism, that is, a way to achieve foreign policy (dissolution of the Soviet Union). When the Soviet Union fell, one reason trumpeted by the Administration was its failure to be able to compete with the "free market capitalism" engendered by such tax favored entities (ignoring at that time a more real reason, namely the inability of the Soviets to meet the greatly increased defense department expenditures occurring at the time, which restricted the ability of the government to meet the societal needs of its people). Thus, the popularity of the same.
When one looks at the incentives provided by the Code to encourage foreign oil and gas exploration and development, one wonders just how serious the folks in Congress really are about encouraging domestic exploration and development (ANWAR notwithstanding). That business is rife with risk, to be sure; but if we're going to take the risk (fiscal and environmental) should not, as a matter of national security, such risk encouragement be limited to the domestic scene? The cynical side of me suggests that as the costs for foreign development, etc., being substantially lower, the same should more than offset the risks involved, but to reward our buddies in the biz, we allow for higher profit margins for such foreign production, etc. and, just in case there's a question, allow the same to be treated as Foreign Source Income, with the incentives therefor being applied. Kind of a double benefit, to be sure. Now, before anyone cries foul, many of these countries impose their own taxation, which the corporation must pay, and for which rightfully there is a credit against U.S. taxes. However, there are in existence tax treaties that also have a salubrious effect on the amount of tax paid the foreign nation.
It may appear that I'm picking on the oil and gas folks, but that isn't my purpose. Other major corporations that have multi-national operations also enjoy a plethora of tax breaks available to them. See Boeing example provided supra.
It's not just in the foreign area where the Code provides incentives for certain results deemed desirable. For example, the existence of the home mortgage interest deduction was designed to encourage home ownership, which then encouraged construction of homes. I believe the same originated in the Internal Revenue Code of 1939 (note date) if not before. Similarly, it was determined that business investment in new PPE (Plant, Property and Equipment) had stagnated during the late 1950s. Thus, in the early years of the Kennedy administration, the Investment Tax Credit and the first appearance of accelerated depreciation methods on equipment with shorter "lives" for the property being depreciated than that recognized for financial accounting purposes to encourage investment in new "stuff" which, it was hoped, would also encourage hiring, etc. At the same time, the maximum federal income tax rate was reduced from 90% to 70% on individuals, which was then reduced a bit later to a maximum of 50% on "earned income". Now, as you may be aware, the maximum federal regular income tax rate is 35%, imposed on taxable income in excess of $309,000 (approximately). Other examples of "social engineering": the tax credits for construction/rehabilitation of low income housing; the adoption credit; the "above the line" (adjustment to gross income) deduction for student loan interest are just some examples. The most famous "special interest" income tax provision of which I'm aware occurred when Russell Long was a Senator from Louisiana (who, by the way, along with Wilbur Mills, member of the House from Arkansas, was one of the few members of Congress who actually knew what the Code said). Anyway, some of his constiuents were the owners of WWL, a radio station in New Orleans, LA. There was some transaction involving WWL that was going to cost these folks a whole lot of money in taxes. Appealing to their good buddy Russell, who met with Wilbur, a special provision was added to the Code to ameliorate these adverse affects. Some staffer with a good sense of humor arranged the lines in the bill in such a manner that when adopted and placed in the Code, the first letter of each line of the provision when read vertically spelled out "WWL, New Orleans, Louisiana". BTW, the adoption of these case-specific provisions of the Code has skyrocketed within recent years.
There are many, many more examples which I could provide. But, out of a feeling of courtesy to those reading, I won't. Needless to say, any meaningful reform of the Code will not be occurring any time soon; there are too many oxen that would be gored should there be.
When one looks at the incentives provided by the Code to encourage foreign oil and gas exploration and development, one wonders just how serious the folks in Congress really are about encouraging domestic exploration and development (ANWAR notwithstanding). That business is rife with risk, to be sure; but if we're going to take the risk (fiscal and environmental) should not, as a matter of national security, such risk encouragement be limited to the domestic scene? The cynical side of me suggests that as the costs for foreign development, etc., being substantially lower, the same should more than offset the risks involved, but to reward our buddies in the biz, we allow for higher profit margins for such foreign production, etc. and, just in case there's a question, allow the same to be treated as Foreign Source Income, with the incentives therefor being applied. Kind of a double benefit, to be sure. Now, before anyone cries foul, many of these countries impose their own taxation, which the corporation must pay, and for which rightfully there is a credit against U.S. taxes. However, there are in existence tax treaties that also have a salubrious effect on the amount of tax paid the foreign nation.
It may appear that I'm picking on the oil and gas folks, but that isn't my purpose. Other major corporations that have multi-national operations also enjoy a plethora of tax breaks available to them. See Boeing example provided supra.
It's not just in the foreign area where the Code provides incentives for certain results deemed desirable. For example, the existence of the home mortgage interest deduction was designed to encourage home ownership, which then encouraged construction of homes. I believe the same originated in the Internal Revenue Code of 1939 (note date) if not before. Similarly, it was determined that business investment in new PPE (Plant, Property and Equipment) had stagnated during the late 1950s. Thus, in the early years of the Kennedy administration, the Investment Tax Credit and the first appearance of accelerated depreciation methods on equipment with shorter "lives" for the property being depreciated than that recognized for financial accounting purposes to encourage investment in new "stuff" which, it was hoped, would also encourage hiring, etc. At the same time, the maximum federal income tax rate was reduced from 90% to 70% on individuals, which was then reduced a bit later to a maximum of 50% on "earned income". Now, as you may be aware, the maximum federal regular income tax rate is 35%, imposed on taxable income in excess of $309,000 (approximately). Other examples of "social engineering": the tax credits for construction/rehabilitation of low income housing; the adoption credit; the "above the line" (adjustment to gross income) deduction for student loan interest are just some examples. The most famous "special interest" income tax provision of which I'm aware occurred when Russell Long was a Senator from Louisiana (who, by the way, along with Wilbur Mills, member of the House from Arkansas, was one of the few members of Congress who actually knew what the Code said). Anyway, some of his constiuents were the owners of WWL, a radio station in New Orleans, LA. There was some transaction involving WWL that was going to cost these folks a whole lot of money in taxes. Appealing to their good buddy Russell, who met with Wilbur, a special provision was added to the Code to ameliorate these adverse affects. Some staffer with a good sense of humor arranged the lines in the bill in such a manner that when adopted and placed in the Code, the first letter of each line of the provision when read vertically spelled out "WWL, New Orleans, Louisiana". BTW, the adoption of these case-specific provisions of the Code has skyrocketed within recent years.
There are many, many more examples which I could provide. But, out of a feeling of courtesy to those reading, I won't. Needless to say, any meaningful reform of the Code will not be occurring any time soon; there are too many oxen that would be gored should there be.
lindainks55 said:
Vaughn, you speak American really well and like Rox said, even the challenged (like ME) understand what you wrote. I appreciate you sharing your expertise and knowledge. I have a love of learning and find little more fun than a good discussion that I get to learn from. ;-)
Rox, I spent several years as a single Mom and you have my respect and empathy. I worked several "jobs." There was the full-time day job, the weekend job, the typing of papers for college students at night after the kids were tucked in. This was back in the day before word processing when correction tapes were a godsend. I cleaned houses and took in ironings; can still do up a shirt better than most. I worked hard to keep me and four kids supported. Their Dad never felt any financial obligation so I didn't have a choice but to go it alone. I was also a Girl Scout Leader and later a Den Mother; held an office with the PTA; took my turn in the schedule of patterning the little girl who did finally walk at the age of 12... I was a whirlwind and lived the saying, "ask a busy person." I earned my position of bum.
Don't we all have ways we spend that go beyond need? Aren't there expenses we personally think of as wasteful that some think of as routine? I have never had a pedicure or manicure or massage or facial but I know people who routinely pay for those services. I do my own yard work but I am more jealous each year of those who hire it done. We don't buy new cars until the one we're replacing really needs to be replaced (sometimes when we finally realize repairs are as expensive as payments will be). We made getting the house paid for a priority while some don't. I think we all make decisions we can live with that others wouldn't be as happy making.
Danny, you are such a nice young man. Your responsible, thoughtful ideas are so refreshing and give me greater hope for our tomorrows when I know we have young people like you in charge.
And lastly, thank you friends! It is comfortable to share thoughts with such nice people!
Rox, I spent several years as a single Mom and you have my respect and empathy. I worked several "jobs." There was the full-time day job, the weekend job, the typing of papers for college students at night after the kids were tucked in. This was back in the day before word processing when correction tapes were a godsend. I cleaned houses and took in ironings; can still do up a shirt better than most. I worked hard to keep me and four kids supported. Their Dad never felt any financial obligation so I didn't have a choice but to go it alone. I was also a Girl Scout Leader and later a Den Mother; held an office with the PTA; took my turn in the schedule of patterning the little girl who did finally walk at the age of 12... I was a whirlwind and lived the saying, "ask a busy person." I earned my position of bum.
Don't we all have ways we spend that go beyond need? Aren't there expenses we personally think of as wasteful that some think of as routine? I have never had a pedicure or manicure or massage or facial but I know people who routinely pay for those services. I do my own yard work but I am more jealous each year of those who hire it done. We don't buy new cars until the one we're replacing really needs to be replaced (sometimes when we finally realize repairs are as expensive as payments will be). We made getting the house paid for a priority while some don't. I think we all make decisions we can live with that others wouldn't be as happy making.
Danny, you are such a nice young man. Your responsible, thoughtful ideas are so refreshing and give me greater hope for our tomorrows when I know we have young people like you in charge.
And lastly, thank you friends! It is comfortable to share thoughts with such nice people!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Going to wrap up my direct responses to Danny's questions with some general observations here that apply, more or less, to his final questions in particular. It looks to me that in my earlier responses I've addressed some of the issues he raised without specifically identifying the same by number.
Danny, you are fortunate to be able to get through school in the manner you did. I, back in the late 1960s, also had to put myself through school (admittedly, with the aid of some scholarships) and I had to avail myself of student loans as well. The jobs, such as they were, available to students in Lawrence, Kansas in those days didn't pay all that well, at least those jobs for which I had some minimal qualification. To minimize the loans I worked for (and thus lived in) a mortuary the last three years of college and the first year of law school (at which time I went off to the USAF). Compensation was $7.50 (later $10) per week (on call every other night and every other weekend), and the living quarters. If, during the day, I was available, I would work a funeral, earning minimum wage therefor. During summers, I worked for Dormitory Maintenance (minimum wage $1.60/hr) one summer; worked funerals the next three summers, together with working construction as a common laborer one summer. I was not blessed with an overabundance of money, to be sure.
The above was a preface to examining whether you were a statistical anomaly. Within the group of friends and acquaintances of mine at that time, the answer is no. Now, having met my daughters' friends, etc., you may well be. We (my friends and I) found many things we needed to be barely within our reach (books, e.g.). Food was always an issue. Ask me about the Fried Salami, Fried Egg and Cheese sandwich sometime. However, there were a few things that weren't needs available if one was careful (student season football and basketball tickets for example). One blessing resulting from living where I did was that I didn't have to pay utilities, and the laundry for bed linens was provided (if you can't figure this one out, ask). No furniture to rent/buy. BTW, my wife and I lived there the first six months of our marriage.
OK, enough of that. Wants vs. needs. I notice in today's world there seems to be a want (cell phone) that has become a need. Personal computer for school (now a laptop is deemed a need). It's a never-ending escalation. Thus, Danny, you were able to utilize as few loans as possible because you clearly identified it seems to me those things that were needs vs. those things you wanted, but recognized you didn't need. I did the same, as did many of my friends, et al. I wanted a stereo; I didn't need one, but I eventually banked a bit of money and got one. Then, I needed LPs to play on it, right? Same story. At no time, though, did I incur additional debt in college to pay for these things.
That said, I perceive, both through client contact and discussion with the offspring a disturbing pattern of confusing the two. No longer are many younger folks willing to accept that there are things they want which are not needs, thus the lure of the credit card offers made to college students combined with gaming the system to obtain loans not being used for educational purposes. Add to that the total loan indebtedness many graduate with, and one can see the handwriting on the wall.
There is a big problem coming for these young folks, I fear, as well as for many of us in different situations. I perceive a recession on the way, followed by a period of stagflation due to the "guns and butter" spending by the government at this time. When the "guns" spending ceases, there will be a contraction; there has to be. Meanwhile, there will continue to be further mergers and acquisitions, etc., together with off-shoring of jobs and entire corporations, all of which will reduce available employment. Without something being done on the immigration front, the low paying jobs traditionally held by students, dropouts, etc., will not be available to them. There must be some incentive, then, to develop new industries. Unfortunately, those things I see as being needed may well find a lack of competent employees to fill the jobs created, given a disturbing trend away from education in math and the sciences, including engineering, and into things like sports management for example. Again, many of these new jobs may, and likely will, be off-shored, or, pressure will be placed on Congress to increase the number of certain kinds of visas to allow highly educated individuals from India, China, etc. to immigrate to fill those jobs. Meanwhile, the price inelastic areas of the economy will continue to contribute to inflation to the detriment of the "common person", intensifying the squeeze on an ever-diminishing middle class.
I see I'm really rambling, so I'll call it a post for now. Have enjoyed the opportunity to read the thoughts of others and to be allowed to bore you with mine.
Danny, you are fortunate to be able to get through school in the manner you did. I, back in the late 1960s, also had to put myself through school (admittedly, with the aid of some scholarships) and I had to avail myself of student loans as well. The jobs, such as they were, available to students in Lawrence, Kansas in those days didn't pay all that well, at least those jobs for which I had some minimal qualification. To minimize the loans I worked for (and thus lived in) a mortuary the last three years of college and the first year of law school (at which time I went off to the USAF). Compensation was $7.50 (later $10) per week (on call every other night and every other weekend), and the living quarters. If, during the day, I was available, I would work a funeral, earning minimum wage therefor. During summers, I worked for Dormitory Maintenance (minimum wage $1.60/hr) one summer; worked funerals the next three summers, together with working construction as a common laborer one summer. I was not blessed with an overabundance of money, to be sure.
The above was a preface to examining whether you were a statistical anomaly. Within the group of friends and acquaintances of mine at that time, the answer is no. Now, having met my daughters' friends, etc., you may well be. We (my friends and I) found many things we needed to be barely within our reach (books, e.g.). Food was always an issue. Ask me about the Fried Salami, Fried Egg and Cheese sandwich sometime. However, there were a few things that weren't needs available if one was careful (student season football and basketball tickets for example). One blessing resulting from living where I did was that I didn't have to pay utilities, and the laundry for bed linens was provided (if you can't figure this one out, ask). No furniture to rent/buy. BTW, my wife and I lived there the first six months of our marriage.
OK, enough of that. Wants vs. needs. I notice in today's world there seems to be a want (cell phone) that has become a need. Personal computer for school (now a laptop is deemed a need). It's a never-ending escalation. Thus, Danny, you were able to utilize as few loans as possible because you clearly identified it seems to me those things that were needs vs. those things you wanted, but recognized you didn't need. I did the same, as did many of my friends, et al. I wanted a stereo; I didn't need one, but I eventually banked a bit of money and got one. Then, I needed LPs to play on it, right? Same story. At no time, though, did I incur additional debt in college to pay for these things.
That said, I perceive, both through client contact and discussion with the offspring a disturbing pattern of confusing the two. No longer are many younger folks willing to accept that there are things they want which are not needs, thus the lure of the credit card offers made to college students combined with gaming the system to obtain loans not being used for educational purposes. Add to that the total loan indebtedness many graduate with, and one can see the handwriting on the wall.
There is a big problem coming for these young folks, I fear, as well as for many of us in different situations. I perceive a recession on the way, followed by a period of stagflation due to the "guns and butter" spending by the government at this time. When the "guns" spending ceases, there will be a contraction; there has to be. Meanwhile, there will continue to be further mergers and acquisitions, etc., together with off-shoring of jobs and entire corporations, all of which will reduce available employment. Without something being done on the immigration front, the low paying jobs traditionally held by students, dropouts, etc., will not be available to them. There must be some incentive, then, to develop new industries. Unfortunately, those things I see as being needed may well find a lack of competent employees to fill the jobs created, given a disturbing trend away from education in math and the sciences, including engineering, and into things like sports management for example. Again, many of these new jobs may, and likely will, be off-shored, or, pressure will be placed on Congress to increase the number of certain kinds of visas to allow highly educated individuals from India, China, etc. to immigrate to fill those jobs. Meanwhile, the price inelastic areas of the economy will continue to contribute to inflation to the detriment of the "common person", intensifying the squeeze on an ever-diminishing middle class.
I see I'm really rambling, so I'll call it a post for now. Have enjoyed the opportunity to read the thoughts of others and to be allowed to bore you with mine.
Vaughn Tolle said:
To answer an expected question before it's asked: I've attended better than 200 funerals in my life, but only 10 involving family or close friends. :-)
Danny said:
Vaughn,
You are absolutely correct. While attending college, some of the fellow students(dare I say majority) placed on need items things such as: game consoles and cell phones. Now, I do understand to some extent cell phone, it does make calling long distance nice, and if used appropriately doesn't cost too much. However, the phones that fellow students "needed" were of the more pricey kind.
As you said, more loans to pay for "education" are taken out. I took out loans to cover books which my grants and scholarships didn't cover. My jobs paid for my living expenses. I worked two jobs, one student job doing web development and one customer service job supporting, you guessed it, cell phone users.
What I've seen first hand as disturbing is the fact that students aren't looking at the fact that they are taking out these loans and 6 months after leaving school are going to have to pay them back, job or not. I've heard students running up loans as much as nearly $50,000+. The mis-labeling of wants vs. needs tells me that many of us leading the future aren't that bright. Which tells me that in order for American businesses to succeed, we are going to need more foreign workers or will be doing more off-shoring. After all, would you hire the American student who partied and played Mario Bros. and got a 2.0 GPA or a foreign national who studied, showed knowledge about how to prepare for life and earned a 3.5GPA? Does this concern me? Yes. This concerns me because it gives reason to want to further replace jobs I could get with foreign nationals(I don't mind them working here please understand I work with some myself and they are very bright and talented individuals) thus increasing my competition for said jobs to sending my potential jobs overseas.
If we as Americans aren't going to lead, or understand our personal lives and what it takes to succeed in just family life or personal life, then how do we expect to compete anywhere globally? Is this a reflection on prior education? how we were raised? family situations? government support? or what?
I don't know the answers to those questions, I suspect nobody really does, but certainly we all have ideas on how we think best to solve it and I think parental responsibility and education are going to be key here. But I think one can describe my generation(and maybe even the next generation) with one or two words being apathy or carefree. Why worry about it now, it will all work out some how. I agree, worrying doesn't solve problems, but not thinking about problems before they happen only leads to no disaster recovery plan when that major problem does occur.
I'm not saying I'm perfect in this, but I've thought about what ifs in my head and what I would do in certain events. Disasters(what ever they may be) occur that no amount of planning could have predicted. In those situations I hope my savings that I've been building will be enough. I suppose we'll see about that soon enough.
You are absolutely correct. While attending college, some of the fellow students(dare I say majority) placed on need items things such as: game consoles and cell phones. Now, I do understand to some extent cell phone, it does make calling long distance nice, and if used appropriately doesn't cost too much. However, the phones that fellow students "needed" were of the more pricey kind.
As you said, more loans to pay for "education" are taken out. I took out loans to cover books which my grants and scholarships didn't cover. My jobs paid for my living expenses. I worked two jobs, one student job doing web development and one customer service job supporting, you guessed it, cell phone users.
What I've seen first hand as disturbing is the fact that students aren't looking at the fact that they are taking out these loans and 6 months after leaving school are going to have to pay them back, job or not. I've heard students running up loans as much as nearly $50,000+. The mis-labeling of wants vs. needs tells me that many of us leading the future aren't that bright. Which tells me that in order for American businesses to succeed, we are going to need more foreign workers or will be doing more off-shoring. After all, would you hire the American student who partied and played Mario Bros. and got a 2.0 GPA or a foreign national who studied, showed knowledge about how to prepare for life and earned a 3.5GPA? Does this concern me? Yes. This concerns me because it gives reason to want to further replace jobs I could get with foreign nationals(I don't mind them working here please understand I work with some myself and they are very bright and talented individuals) thus increasing my competition for said jobs to sending my potential jobs overseas.
If we as Americans aren't going to lead, or understand our personal lives and what it takes to succeed in just family life or personal life, then how do we expect to compete anywhere globally? Is this a reflection on prior education? how we were raised? family situations? government support? or what?
I don't know the answers to those questions, I suspect nobody really does, but certainly we all have ideas on how we think best to solve it and I think parental responsibility and education are going to be key here. But I think one can describe my generation(and maybe even the next generation) with one or two words being apathy or carefree. Why worry about it now, it will all work out some how. I agree, worrying doesn't solve problems, but not thinking about problems before they happen only leads to no disaster recovery plan when that major problem does occur.
I'm not saying I'm perfect in this, but I've thought about what ifs in my head and what I would do in certain events. Disasters(what ever they may be) occur that no amount of planning could have predicted. In those situations I hope my savings that I've been building will be enough. I suppose we'll see about that soon enough.
Rox said:
VERY off topic, but what are the laws regarding helmets on motorcycle riders? Not the drivers, but the riders. My 17-year-old daughter just took off on a crotch rocket with the husband of a friend...with no helmet. My rule is WEAR A HELMET. My question? Is it the law?
Guess who my daughter won't be spending ANY time with in the future.
Guess who my daughter won't be spending ANY time with in the future.
Danny said:
Rox,
I believe helmet use was required for all riders on a motorcycle. Mind you I think that helmet use could be as limited as a pair of sunglasses.
I believe helmet use was required for all riders on a motorcycle. Mind you I think that helmet use could be as limited as a pair of sunglasses.
Danny said:
Rox,
This is the law in Kansas, not sure what if any further restrictions the city may have on the matter:
http://usff.com/hldl/hlstatutes/kansashl.html
This is the law in Kansas, not sure what if any further restrictions the city may have on the matter:
http://usff.com/hldl/hlstatutes/kansashl.html
Danny said:
Vaughn,
Thanks, I was looking for that one myself. I'm not extremely proficient in looking up the KSA on the KSA website. ;)
Thanks, I was looking for that one myself. I'm not extremely proficient in looking up the KSA on the KSA website. ;)
Danny said:
So I think it was mentioned earlier. But I hope that Dubya is doing ok. Since we've not seen him around in a while.
Rox said:
Thanks, guys. I have enough trouble getting her to wear a seat belt, but this, to me at least, is serious. Rules are rules. The time for debate isn't after they're broken, but when they're made.
Danny, I understand your feelings about helmet laws. Yes, they can impair vision and hearing. She needs neither while riding. First of all, she's not even 5 feet tall, while the driver is over 6 feet. What can she see? She doesn't watch traffic while riding in a CAR. Second, I've never been able to hear much of anything when NOT wearing a helmet. >g<
With all the motorcycle accidents over the past year and a half, I'm wary. Too many are not the fault of the motorcycle, and as I look at my watch and see that it's the middle of rush hour, it doesn't calm my fears. Or my PO'd state. Just how many drivers are watching out for bikes?
Sorry for the rant, all. I'll go back to work and put these thoughts aside until I cool down. :)
Danny, I understand your feelings about helmet laws. Yes, they can impair vision and hearing. She needs neither while riding. First of all, she's not even 5 feet tall, while the driver is over 6 feet. What can she see? She doesn't watch traffic while riding in a CAR. Second, I've never been able to hear much of anything when NOT wearing a helmet. >g<
With all the motorcycle accidents over the past year and a half, I'm wary. Too many are not the fault of the motorcycle, and as I look at my watch and see that it's the middle of rush hour, it doesn't calm my fears. Or my PO'd state. Just how many drivers are watching out for bikes?
Sorry for the rant, all. I'll go back to work and put these thoughts aside until I cool down. :)
Rox said:
Thanks, Linda. That will be early tomorrow morning. She HAS arrived safely at their destination. I know only because I called the wife of the guy and explained that my daughter would not be returning another time for a visit. My daughter felt the need to call and debate me on the topic.
"I bet you never wore a helmet on a motorcycle."
Uh, that was a generation ago, and I rode very little and never in rush hour traffic.
Don't ya just love their reasoning and arguments?
I'm way too old for this garbage.
"I bet you never wore a helmet on a motorcycle."
Uh, that was a generation ago, and I rode very little and never in rush hour traffic.
Don't ya just love their reasoning and arguments?
I'm way too old for this garbage.
Rox said:
We carved them out of stone. And, boy, talk about heavy!
Don't you remember? (backatcha and tee hee)
Don't you remember? (backatcha and tee hee)
Vaughn Tolle said:
Gee, Rox, I don't; but, as they say, memory is the second thing to go and I don't remember what the first is. :-)
Vaughn Tolle said:
Off on another tangent. The Eagle headline this morning in the alleged Business section about "An Obscure Provision..." really ticked me off. First, such provision is only obscure in the sense that the entire Bankruptcy Code is obscure. Those who are familiar with the Bankruptcy Code are _very_ well acquainted with the provisions which deal with "preferences". Second, it illustrates the laughable nature of those who put the section together. The action of WWW should not have come as a surprise, and the Eagle's business reporters should have already run a piece about the potential for this action. Not too surprising, I guess, given that the main columnist seems to be learning her craft from Bonnie Bing.
Danny said:
How is everyone doing today? I'm thinking about taking a break and getting some caffeine now. Other than that, all is well in my little tiny space in the world.
Danny said:
Vaughn,
I also am busy. I've stayed relatively productive though.
Last night my oldest daughter and I built a Lego Mindstorm project together(she is only 2 and half) but I let her help me put the pieces together. Then I had written some code to get it drive around and attempt to avoid obstacles. Now she runs around around screaming, "car, car". LOL I've created a monster. ;) It was worth it though, but I think she is still a little too young to really understand what legos are for, so maybe I'll wait a bit longer before breaking that back out again.
I also am busy. I've stayed relatively productive though.
Last night my oldest daughter and I built a Lego Mindstorm project together(she is only 2 and half) but I let her help me put the pieces together. Then I had written some code to get it drive around and attempt to avoid obstacles. Now she runs around around screaming, "car, car". LOL I've created a monster. ;) It was worth it though, but I think she is still a little too young to really understand what legos are for, so maybe I'll wait a bit longer before breaking that back out again.
lindainks55 said:
I've never played with the robotics -- maybe I'll give them a shot at MindScapes this evening. My Mother is in town and we will go for Family Night from 6 - 8 and then hustle out of the way before the teen Harry Potter fans arrive for the big wait to midnight. Boy, they have a lot of fun things planned for the wait so the time shold go quickly for those kids!
Rox said:
Linda, I need to pass the MindScapes info on to my oldest. Her daughter LOVES to play games on the computer. They won't be able to attend Family Night though. I doubt anyone would want the bumpy, chickenpoxed thing around right now. >g<
And thanks for the HP reminder. We haven't made it to the latest HP movie yet, but my youngest--who knows all there is to know about HP and more--informed me that we'll be getting the new book at midnight tonight. She's probably lost count of the times she's read all the others. I hope Ms. Rowling creates something as equally entertaining as Harry & friends have been for so many. It's good to see kids (and some grownups!) reading.
And thanks for the HP reminder. We haven't made it to the latest HP movie yet, but my youngest--who knows all there is to know about HP and more--informed me that we'll be getting the new book at midnight tonight. She's probably lost count of the times she's read all the others. I hope Ms. Rowling creates something as equally entertaining as Harry & friends have been for so many. It's good to see kids (and some grownups!) reading.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Rox, I expect our two "young'uns" will be doing the HP thing tonight, even at the relatively advanced ages of 27 and 21. I note that the college bookstore at Colby is having a HP "party" tonight for those on campus, together, I'm sure, with the lineal descendants of the faculty and staff. :-)
On a more serious note, as posted over at WEBlog the other day, there is no evidence of increased reading among the youngers these days, and in fact, there is a continued decrease in reading in general, Harry Potter to the contrary notwithstanding. I'm not qualified to deliver the ultimate opinion on why, but I suspect that unless the topic is one which captures the fancy of the readers, such as HP books did, there are too many alternatives for the attention of the younger folks. Sadly, it seems that high school age is where reading really begins to drop off which, to me, is the time it should be increasing. Listening at various functions over the years at NEMHS, one of the big complaints of parents is that there is too much reading assigned, whether in English or in the other classes, which is ludicrous; if anything, there should be more, much more, assigned, especially in English classes.
On a more serious note, as posted over at WEBlog the other day, there is no evidence of increased reading among the youngers these days, and in fact, there is a continued decrease in reading in general, Harry Potter to the contrary notwithstanding. I'm not qualified to deliver the ultimate opinion on why, but I suspect that unless the topic is one which captures the fancy of the readers, such as HP books did, there are too many alternatives for the attention of the younger folks. Sadly, it seems that high school age is where reading really begins to drop off which, to me, is the time it should be increasing. Listening at various functions over the years at NEMHS, one of the big complaints of parents is that there is too much reading assigned, whether in English or in the other classes, which is ludicrous; if anything, there should be more, much more, assigned, especially in English classes.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Danny, good for you. Another of my quibbles here, not directed at you personally, but to the greater world.
We all talk about being productive, when the key is to be efficient. In absolutist terms, I'm productive even on those days all I accomplish is a letter to a client, followed by hours of no other documents or instruments produced. I'm efficient on those days when I generate the needed documents, instruments, etc. for many cases, return all my telephone calls, tend to correspondence. Most would say I was productive only in the second example; no, I was efficient then. Quibble off.
Legos are great things. We started the girls on Duplos (oversized Legos) early, as they could do things with the Duplos without our being concerned they'd try to eat them. We advanced to Legos as appropriate. Are Duplos even made anymore?
We all talk about being productive, when the key is to be efficient. In absolutist terms, I'm productive even on those days all I accomplish is a letter to a client, followed by hours of no other documents or instruments produced. I'm efficient on those days when I generate the needed documents, instruments, etc. for many cases, return all my telephone calls, tend to correspondence. Most would say I was productive only in the second example; no, I was efficient then. Quibble off.
Legos are great things. We started the girls on Duplos (oversized Legos) early, as they could do things with the Duplos without our being concerned they'd try to eat them. We advanced to Legos as appropriate. Are Duplos even made anymore?
Rox said:
Re: Harry Potter
I've only read the first, but enjoyed it. I HAVE seen all the movies and was fascinated by all the special effects. We've moved way beyond the original Star Wars trilogy and that one was a mind blower at the time.
It's wonderful that HP is for all ages, whether just beginning to read big "chapter" books or adults of all ages. Someday, I'll get to the rest of them. I don't have a lot of reading time these days, but I'm setting a goal w/schedule to do more.
Yes, I saw the comment on WEBlog about the number of readers not increasing. I suppose if I'd had all the entertainment venues kids have now, I might not have been much of a reader, either, although I really doubt that. :) My dad (7th grade education) taught me the value of reading when I was too young to know what a word was. Books are precious to me, evidenced by the many I have that will probably never be read, but can't be thrown out. Who could throw away a friend?
I've only read the first, but enjoyed it. I HAVE seen all the movies and was fascinated by all the special effects. We've moved way beyond the original Star Wars trilogy and that one was a mind blower at the time.
It's wonderful that HP is for all ages, whether just beginning to read big "chapter" books or adults of all ages. Someday, I'll get to the rest of them. I don't have a lot of reading time these days, but I'm setting a goal w/schedule to do more.
Yes, I saw the comment on WEBlog about the number of readers not increasing. I suppose if I'd had all the entertainment venues kids have now, I might not have been much of a reader, either, although I really doubt that. :) My dad (7th grade education) taught me the value of reading when I was too young to know what a word was. Books are precious to me, evidenced by the many I have that will probably never be read, but can't be thrown out. Who could throw away a friend?
Vaughn Tolle said:
Rox, thus the reason you and we have so many books.
I was raised by readers, especially my dad. Really, I was introduced to the wonders of reading by my maternal grandmother. As the oldest grandchild, I spent a lot of time with her during her last years on this earth (terminal cancer), and as her physical condition deteriorated, reading became the shared activity. She died when I was around five, and when I started Kindergarten, I could already read at a relatively advanced level. Thus my assignment to the "Group W" bench. If I've not bored you with this one, let me know, so I may so do. :-)
I was raised by readers, especially my dad. Really, I was introduced to the wonders of reading by my maternal grandmother. As the oldest grandchild, I spent a lot of time with her during her last years on this earth (terminal cancer), and as her physical condition deteriorated, reading became the shared activity. She died when I was around five, and when I started Kindergarten, I could already read at a relatively advanced level. Thus my assignment to the "Group W" bench. If I've not bored you with this one, let me know, so I may so do. :-)
Rox said:
I don't know if Duplos per se are available, but the big connecting plastic blocks of the same kind are. Or at least were 4 or 5 years ago. I know. I get to pick up some of them every day.
Rox said:
Not bored at all, VT! It's always interesting to learn how others came to reading. My ex once told me reading was boring. :O Even that didn't stop me. :)
My own four daughters are proof that reading to children makes readers OF them. One is voracious and eclectic, one pretty much only reads one author when she has time, one reads sometimes, and the youngest reads quite a lot.
My own four daughters are proof that reading to children makes readers OF them. One is voracious and eclectic, one pretty much only reads one author when she has time, one reads sometimes, and the youngest reads quite a lot.
Gster said:
DAMM!! I think I ran out of scroll grease getting to the bottom of this list! I might neeed a tow.
Whew....
Whew....
Vaughn Tolle said:
Rox, my comment on "bored" related to the assignment of my Kindergarten's equivalent of the "Group W Bench". I am always interested in how others came to reading as well, having been blessed by two children who were "autonomous" readers.
I gotta tell you that being as I do what I do, there's not much left in the tank (eyes, whatever) for pleasure reading at the end of the day anymore. I used to read voraciously, but about 10 years ago, the burden of professional reading combined with many other factors just removed the incentive. rm has loaned me two tomes in which I have great interest, but the going is slow due to my mental fatigue, not that the material isn't of interest to me.
I gotta tell you that being as I do what I do, there's not much left in the tank (eyes, whatever) for pleasure reading at the end of the day anymore. I used to read voraciously, but about 10 years ago, the burden of professional reading combined with many other factors just removed the incentive. rm has loaned me two tomes in which I have great interest, but the going is slow due to my mental fatigue, not that the material isn't of interest to me.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Good morning all. Hope the weekend was good.
Noticed on the front page of the Eagle today that there's to be an auction of the Etheredge properties in August. Also noticed that SCKED had filed a motion to lift stay in the Chapter 11 proceedings. For the uninitiated, the two are most definitely connected. I daresay that if the motion hadn't been filed, there would be no auction.
Noticed on the front page of the Eagle today that there's to be an auction of the Etheredge properties in August. Also noticed that SCKED had filed a motion to lift stay in the Chapter 11 proceedings. For the uninitiated, the two are most definitely connected. I daresay that if the motion hadn't been filed, there would be no auction.
lindainks55 said:
Several days ago on this thread tht has become soooo long gster is using up all his scroll grease and mine is low, we were talking about Petraeus assesment of Iraq due in September. I know, I know -- the cite below is salon, but in the interest of being informed of ALL sides...
Thursday July 19, 2007 06:24 EST
How much credence should Gen. Petraeus' reports be given?
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/07/19/...
Thursday July 19, 2007 06:24 EST
How much credence should Gen. Petraeus' reports be given?
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/07/19/...
Vaughn Tolle said:
Linda, as we lawyers say, your question (properly) goes to the weight to be afforded to his 'testimony'. I've been interested in the recent pronouncements of junior Generals (junior to Petraeus) concerning the need for more time. I believe these are authorized 'trial balloons' to measure public (and more importantly Congressional) reaction to what I think the report will likely say come September. Based upon the things I've read/heard, not the reaction hoped for.
lindainks55 said:
I'm not very impressed with anything political nowadays (from either party!), but to the point you made above it seems the new military spokesman is sending up several trial balloons. Here's hoping SOMEONE / ANYONE capable of getting us out of this mess can also see through the hype.
Bergner's History
Bergner has made quite a splash since taking over as military spokesman in Iraq in May.
Washington Post reporter Joshua Partlow wrote from Baghdad on July 2: "An American general said on Monday that Iraqi Shiite militiamen are being trained by Iranian security forces in cooperation with Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite movement, offering the most specific accusations to date of Iranian involvement in specific attacks against U.S. forces.
"Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner, a U.S. military spokesman, asserted that Iran's elite al-Quds Force, a wing of the Revolutionary Guard, was providing armor-piercing weapons to extremist groups in Iraq, funneling them up to $3 million a month and training Iraqi militiamen at three camps near Tehran."
Michael R. Gordon wrote that same day for the New York Times: "Iranian operatives helped plan a January raid in Karbala in which five American soldiers were killed, an American military spokesman in Iraq said today.
"Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner, the military spokesman, also said that Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps has used operatives from the Lebanese militia group Hezbollah as a 'proxy' to train and arm Shiite militants in Iraq. . . .
"In effect, American officials are charging that Iran has been engaged in a proxy war against American forces for years, though officials today sought to confine their comments to the specific incidents covered in their briefing."
But there was no evidence to back up Bergner's claims. And as Mike Nizza pointed out on the New York Times Web site, Bergner showed at least some willingness to make insinuations based not on intelligence, but on his imagination. Consider the following exchange:
Bergner: "Our intelligence reveals that senior leadership in Iran is aware of this activity. . . . "
Question: "Can you define senior leadership?"
Bergner: "I think I'll leave it at that."
Question: "Would you exclude the supreme leader?"
Bergner: "I'll leave it at 'senior leadership in Iran'"
Question: "Put it this way: Do you think it's possible that he doesn't know?"
Bergner: "That would be hard to imagine."
At least one report since then appears to cast some doubt on Bergner's claim of an Iranian role in the Karbala attack. As Gregg Zoroya wrote on July 12 for USA Today: "A previously undisclosed Army investigation into an audacious January attack in Karbala that killed five U.S. soldiers concludes that Iraqi police working alongside American troops colluded with insurgents."
Sudarsan Raghavan wrote in the July 12 Washington Post: "U.S. military officials on Wednesday said they expected the Sunni insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq to 'lash out and stage spectacular attacks' and fuel sectarian violence in response to an ongoing U.S. offensive north of Baghdad.
"Calling al-Qaeda in Iraq 'the principal threat' to Iraqis, Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner, the chief U.S. military spokesman, said the group was the main focus of the U.S. security campaign. Like other U.S. officials in recent weeks, Bergner stressed that al-Qaeda in Iraq is supported by the organization led by Osama bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, an assertion that intelligence analysts have disputed."
But where's the evidence? Not to be found. Can it be verified? Not a chance. So should we believe him?
Bergner's History
Bergner has made quite a splash since taking over as military spokesman in Iraq in May.
Washington Post reporter Joshua Partlow wrote from Baghdad on July 2: "An American general said on Monday that Iraqi Shiite militiamen are being trained by Iranian security forces in cooperation with Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite movement, offering the most specific accusations to date of Iranian involvement in specific attacks against U.S. forces.
"Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner, a U.S. military spokesman, asserted that Iran's elite al-Quds Force, a wing of the Revolutionary Guard, was providing armor-piercing weapons to extremist groups in Iraq, funneling them up to $3 million a month and training Iraqi militiamen at three camps near Tehran."
Michael R. Gordon wrote that same day for the New York Times: "Iranian operatives helped plan a January raid in Karbala in which five American soldiers were killed, an American military spokesman in Iraq said today.
"Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner, the military spokesman, also said that Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps has used operatives from the Lebanese militia group Hezbollah as a 'proxy' to train and arm Shiite militants in Iraq. . . .
"In effect, American officials are charging that Iran has been engaged in a proxy war against American forces for years, though officials today sought to confine their comments to the specific incidents covered in their briefing."
But there was no evidence to back up Bergner's claims. And as Mike Nizza pointed out on the New York Times Web site, Bergner showed at least some willingness to make insinuations based not on intelligence, but on his imagination. Consider the following exchange:
Bergner: "Our intelligence reveals that senior leadership in Iran is aware of this activity. . . . "
Question: "Can you define senior leadership?"
Bergner: "I think I'll leave it at that."
Question: "Would you exclude the supreme leader?"
Bergner: "I'll leave it at 'senior leadership in Iran'"
Question: "Put it this way: Do you think it's possible that he doesn't know?"
Bergner: "That would be hard to imagine."
At least one report since then appears to cast some doubt on Bergner's claim of an Iranian role in the Karbala attack. As Gregg Zoroya wrote on July 12 for USA Today: "A previously undisclosed Army investigation into an audacious January attack in Karbala that killed five U.S. soldiers concludes that Iraqi police working alongside American troops colluded with insurgents."
Sudarsan Raghavan wrote in the July 12 Washington Post: "U.S. military officials on Wednesday said they expected the Sunni insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq to 'lash out and stage spectacular attacks' and fuel sectarian violence in response to an ongoing U.S. offensive north of Baghdad.
"Calling al-Qaeda in Iraq 'the principal threat' to Iraqis, Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner, the chief U.S. military spokesman, said the group was the main focus of the U.S. security campaign. Like other U.S. officials in recent weeks, Bergner stressed that al-Qaeda in Iraq is supported by the organization led by Osama bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, an assertion that intelligence analysts have disputed."
But where's the evidence? Not to be found. Can it be verified? Not a chance. So should we believe him?
Vaughn Tolle said:
Should we believe Bergner? The evidence to date suggests he is a "shill" for the Administration position, making his utterances no more believable than other Administration statements. This, however, is not an indictment of General Petraeus' statements to date. "Plausible deniability" is the game in play here. General Bergner makes a statement, not publicly joined in by General Petraeus. Statement later shown either to be false in total, or not complete in detail, making the statement dubious as to its accuracy. General Petraeus is then in a position to say "General Bergner was inaccurate in his statements because...", and is not unfavorably viewed due to the prior statements, regardless of his private position thereon at the time the same were made. As Gster pointed out earlier, General Officers are politicians, else they would not be General Officers. Remember, one becomes a General Officer through nomination by the President and approval by Congress. An apolitical officer has not a chance to a promotion to this level.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Looking at the forecast and the radar, Rox may want to obtain two goats on a short term basis.....
Rox said:
Ah, politics. It's sad that politicians, whether those holding office (admin, congress, military) don't politic for the PEOPLE, but for themselves.
And on that note, I may be MIA for a few days. Lots of stuff dumped on me that must be done this week. And being Queen of Procrastination, I need to stay one step ahead when the mood strikes me. :)
Have a great week, my friends!
And on that note, I may be MIA for a few days. Lots of stuff dumped on me that must be done this week. And being Queen of Procrastination, I need to stay one step ahead when the mood strikes me. :)
Have a great week, my friends!
Nathan said:
Is it that hard to believe, that Iran could be fighting a proxy war in Iraq?
I have been in several intelligence briefings during my workups and depoloyment to Iraq.
We have captured Iranian operatives in Iraq. The advanced bombs being made and used against our armor have been traced to Iran.
And here we are questioning Bergner?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070720/wl_mideast_af...
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?i...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124835,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/25/world/middleeast...
I could go on. Do a google search.
I know these things are not plastered all over the news, but to bury your head in the sand and pretend like there is no evidence that Iran is indeed fighting a proxy war there is assinine.
I have been in several intelligence briefings during my workups and depoloyment to Iraq.
We have captured Iranian operatives in Iraq. The advanced bombs being made and used against our armor have been traced to Iran.
And here we are questioning Bergner?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070720/wl_mideast_af...
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?i...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124835,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/25/world/middleeast...
I could go on. Do a google search.
I know these things are not plastered all over the news, but to bury your head in the sand and pretend like there is no evidence that Iran is indeed fighting a proxy war there is assinine.
lindainks55 said:
Looks like the first of the rain missed us. Sure hope some of the "possible" does arrive. And yes I remember when I was asking for the rain to stop. But I didn't mean stop, guess pause would have been a better wish.
Gster said:
Can you put the rain hold? I'm on my bike and have watched the rain dance chance go from 40% to 60%. I hope I don't rust!
Vaughn Tolle said:
Nathan, not going to get into a pissing contest with you on this. If a proxy war with Iran is what's happening, then why does the good General still label al Qaeda as the biggest threat? And, why is there evidence of a statement made by the General concerning Iranian involvement not being supported by the facts?
Iran is the bigger threat to mid-East stability, and by the action taken in Iraq to invade, etc., its job has been made easier. However, there is nothing that has been made public substantiated by hard data that shows the government of Iran, as contrasted to the Shia in Iran, are directly involved in the Iraq situation. Plenty of innuendo, etc., but little of substance.
Iran is the bigger threat to mid-East stability, and by the action taken in Iraq to invade, etc., its job has been made easier. However, there is nothing that has been made public substantiated by hard data that shows the government of Iran, as contrasted to the Shia in Iran, are directly involved in the Iraq situation. Plenty of innuendo, etc., but little of substance.
Nathan said:
"Nathan, not going to get into a pissing contest with you on this."
Well, sorry to have interupted your unfetterd opinion sharing here by introducing a contrary opinion.
You introduce an either or scenario when it is not called for.
Al Qaeda can both be the biggest threat and Iran can also be involved in subterfuge in Iraq.
I would figure at this time it wouldn't do much good to publicaly accuse or make accusations agains Iran in this climate.
I can only speculate as to why.
However, as I already posted, it is clear that Iran is indeed acting in Iraq. That has been the opinion of all my intelligence briefings since over a year ago during my workups.
Why during Vietnam did we still hinder ourselves with the DMZ when it was clear that the North Vietnamese were in constant violation?
Why during Vietnam did we put artificial boundaries on ourselves by restricting military activity in Cambodia?
I would argue that politics played a huge part of it.
At this present time, I would hardly see the already captiulated Democrats supporting anything against Iran.
Well, sorry to have interupted your unfetterd opinion sharing here by introducing a contrary opinion.
You introduce an either or scenario when it is not called for.
Al Qaeda can both be the biggest threat and Iran can also be involved in subterfuge in Iraq.
I would figure at this time it wouldn't do much good to publicaly accuse or make accusations agains Iran in this climate.
I can only speculate as to why.
However, as I already posted, it is clear that Iran is indeed acting in Iraq. That has been the opinion of all my intelligence briefings since over a year ago during my workups.
Why during Vietnam did we still hinder ourselves with the DMZ when it was clear that the North Vietnamese were in constant violation?
Why during Vietnam did we put artificial boundaries on ourselves by restricting military activity in Cambodia?
I would argue that politics played a huge part of it.
At this present time, I would hardly see the already captiulated Democrats supporting anything against Iran.
Nathan said:
Troops Authorized to Kill Iranian Operatives in Iraq
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...
Rice Says Bush Authorized Iranians’ Arrest in Iraq
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/13/world/middleeast...
U.S. Ties Iran to Deadly Iraq Attack
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/02/world/middleeast...
U.S.: Evidence shows Iran subversion in Iraq
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16825943/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...
Rice Says Bush Authorized Iranians’ Arrest in Iraq
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/13/world/middleeast...
U.S. Ties Iran to Deadly Iraq Attack
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/02/world/middleeast...
U.S.: Evidence shows Iran subversion in Iraq
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16825943/
lindainks55 said:
Gary, appears the only way you'll get wet in Wichita is if you ride too close to the curb and a lawn sprinkler gets you. It does look like Tracy's part of the world is wet.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Gster, I agree with Linda. Looks like all the activity is elsewhere for now, and there's a sufficient window for you to do whatever it is you have to do.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Well, based upon what has happened in my world the past hour or so, suddenly I find that I, like Rox, will be MIA for a few days. Will at least be lurking, and if time allows, will make a meager contribution.
Rox said:
I'm goofing off this a.m., but need to get busy on real stuff. However, goofing netted me the following, which I wasn't aware of.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070724/ap_on_el_pr/de...
"YouTube questions take a different tack
Video questions submitted to the hip Web site YouTube shook up the usual campaign debate Monday night. The questions, most of them coming from young people, were blunt and earnest, yet sometimes bizarre."
This was a Democratic debate featured on (and by?) YouTube. Anyone know where this can be viewed?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070724/ap_on_el_pr/de...
"YouTube questions take a different tack
Video questions submitted to the hip Web site YouTube shook up the usual campaign debate Monday night. The questions, most of them coming from young people, were blunt and earnest, yet sometimes bizarre."
This was a Democratic debate featured on (and by?) YouTube. Anyone know where this can be viewed?
Rox said:
Let me revise the previous. It was a Democratic Debate featured on CNN last night, with questions for the candidates that had been posted you YouTube.
As for my question, it can be viewed here:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/23/debate.main...
I've decided to save it and view it later as a reward for getting my work done today. Like a child, rewards work well for me. >g<
As for my question, it can be viewed here:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/23/debate.main...
I've decided to save it and view it later as a reward for getting my work done today. Like a child, rewards work well for me. >g<
lindainks55 said:
I watched most of last night's debate. The repair shop called and I had to go retrieve the truck so missed 10 minutes or so of the first half hour.
They are repeating the format with Republicans in September.
As I've told all of you Senator Clinton isn't my choice of candidate. I don't have a clear choice yet. Now I must admit she looked and sounded very presidential last night. She was very good in this forum.
I still think it's too early to pay close attention as they are still in the process of eliminating one another and we don't even have everyone who may join the race. I try to watch the debates of both parties and this format allows questions they may not have practiced answers to so I like it.
Rox, you'll get a chuckle out of Senator Clinton answering a question from YouTube on what she thought of the many years of two families holding a monopoly on the office of U.S. President.
They are repeating the format with Republicans in September.
As I've told all of you Senator Clinton isn't my choice of candidate. I don't have a clear choice yet. Now I must admit she looked and sounded very presidential last night. She was very good in this forum.
I still think it's too early to pay close attention as they are still in the process of eliminating one another and we don't even have everyone who may join the race. I try to watch the debates of both parties and this format allows questions they may not have practiced answers to so I like it.
Rox, you'll get a chuckle out of Senator Clinton answering a question from YouTube on what she thought of the many years of two families holding a monopoly on the office of U.S. President.
lindainks55 said:
Two men in the same room tell two different stories; wonder who has reason to lie? Will anyone ever be held accountable??
Gster said:
I found it unbelievable that rather than resign, AGG said his mission was to "fix" the DOJ and improve the Public's impression of it when he is mainly the person responsible for that perception in the first place!
It seems the First Law of Buchco is the Big Lie scenario: repeating falsehoods often enough somehow makes them real and believable, perhaps even palatable.
It seems the First Law of Buchco is the Big Lie scenario: repeating falsehoods often enough somehow makes them real and believable, perhaps even palatable.
Vaughn Tolle said:
Well, it's clear that AGAG won't resign, and it's clear he won't be fired. Thus, there are two options left to remove him from office: impeachment (he can most assuredly be the subject of an impeachment under the Constitution), or invocation of an arcane, little known procedure: trial by the Congress. The problem with the first is the time it would take; the problem with the second is whether, assuming a trial (doubtful, notwithstanding Senator Specter's huffing and puffing) and conviction, enforcement of any verdict.
lindainks55 said:
He can't resign or be fired because a replacement might prove to be competent at the job and that would be disastrous to bushco. And, we know truth can't be found from liars so no trial would shed light on anything and no conviction would mean anything but a pardon.
I just didn't know crooks could get by with so much. I am more disappointed than I have words to say. I HAD great respect for our country and the laws of the land. It hurts to see where justice doesn't apply.
I just didn't know crooks could get by with so much. I am more disappointed than I have words to say. I HAD great respect for our country and the laws of the land. It hurts to see where justice doesn't apply.
Rox said:
I'm much more sad than angry these days. It's been one travesty after another with this out of control Administration. Nothing surprises me. Oh, wait, what *would* surprise me is if the Dems would grow some...hair under their armpits...and actually do something 100%, instead of the half-assed (pardon my French) garbage they've been attempting. Okay, maybe I AM angry. :)
Vaughn Tolle said:
As an attorney, I admit the cumulative effect of the Watergate matter (although I believe that for a short time there was a renewed appreciation for the "rule of law"), Iran-Contra, the Clinton Impeachment, and the actions of the current administration has been one resulting in opinions held by the good people such as the two of you, Linda and Rox. While I must continue to respect the law and the process, as I firmly believe it can work, I approach these topics with trepidation, as it seems daily the whole thing is under attack by those who have taken an oath to uphold the law, and who seemingly now are only interested in using the guarantees built into the system to protect their butts, rather than the faithful execution of the law as it is their duty to do. GMC and I may not always agree, but upon this principle we do: the biggest threat to our society is the "government" when those in the government are doing their best to subvert the rules to their own advantage.
You know, it's a really negative thing when members of the public are forced to carefully parse the statements of government officials to determine just what it is they are saying. Careful parsing is part and parcel of my profession; it seems to me that the members of the general public are entitled to receive short, clear, declarative sentences to become informed of the actions of their elected representatives and those who serve them. It's a Hell of a note when "I don't recall" is replaced by "I recused myself".
You know, it's a really negative thing when members of the public are forced to carefully parse the statements of government officials to determine just what it is they are saying. Careful parsing is part and parcel of my profession; it seems to me that the members of the general public are entitled to receive short, clear, declarative sentences to become informed of the actions of their elected representatives and those who serve them. It's a Hell of a note when "I don't recall" is replaced by "I recused myself".
Gster said:
DAMM! Damm birds ate my trail of bread crumbs! How'm I going to find my way out of here? Boy, I sure hope the lights don't fail, this could be worse than meeting my Mother-in-Law!! In the dark, yet..
lindainks55 said:
Danny (if you haven't gotten lost) and Gary (before you get lost further) a few (Vaughn, Rox, Tracy and I) have been doing some playing (absolutely nothing serious crosses our ?minds?) at Tracy's place. Come over and play! I flit around here, there, everywhere and never make any sense at any of the places.
http://tracyphillips.instantspot.com/blog/
If I don't see you there, I'll find you here. Hang on, you're NOT alone!
http://tracyphillips.instantspot.com/blog/
If I don't see you there, I'll find you here. Hang on, you're NOT alone!
Gster said:
Linda- Thanks- I can't remember which computer, home or work, I originally used, and I don't remember what my passwod was, so I probably won't be able to get on Tracy's blog. At least not right now.
Gary
Gary
lindainks55 said:
Did you have to spend the night here? In the dark? Did it make unidentified creaky noises like all places do when it gets both quiet and dark? It was just the air conditioner!
Rox said:
Hey, .morg! LTNS
Check on us over at Tracy's blog, if you can.
Here's a link to the latest comment:
http://tracyphillips.instantspot.com/blog/index.cf...
Check on us over at Tracy's blog, if you can.
Here's a link to the latest comment:
http://tracyphillips.instantspot.com/blog/index.cf...
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